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What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes: 87

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twoflowers

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#106 Post by twoflowers »

You should put Machiavelli on your reading list, too. "Il principe" is quite short and very enlightening in an unsettling way.

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dilberts_left_nut
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#107 Post by dilberts_left_nut »

fruitofloom wrote:dilbert, regarding your post above, ontopic. Round the lines of "the benefit of doubt" for debian.
It doesn't look as if all DD's would share that view. Look at the actual "discussions" in debian-vote, also the logs of IRC-chat.

What i try to say is something like this:
I really think this whole problem is something big.
It is a technical change you can't compare with the change of, say, gnome2 to 3, or kde3.5 to 5. But i think it may (may!) result in a social change in the debian project too.
One can still say one will go on to use Debian. That is not my point. But i said it already above: "Don't worry, just trolls" I don't think that is the case (you didn't say it, but some make it sound like that).

I tend to make things sound dramatic. It might well be me. Just saying how it looks like to me.
I have seen some of it and yes it is concerning, and yes not everyone agrees, and yes some are getting riled enough to leave, which is bad.
I can't compare it to previous disagreements within the project so it may be better or worse than what has happened before, I don't know, the outcome will be enlightening.
I agree that the "just trolls" argument is false, but it is a very easy one to make and evidence for it is plenty.
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#108 Post by mmix »

here is another "systemd"

Systemd-resolved DNS cache poisoning
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8595335

and here

[systemd-devel] [RFC 00/12] Bugfixes for CONFIG_VT=n
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 14808.html

do you see their direction?

twoflowers

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#109 Post by twoflowers »

systemd is becomming more and more absurd.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#110 Post by fleabus »

[removed by fleabus]
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 00:52, edited 2 times in total.
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fruitofloom
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#111 Post by fruitofloom »

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
fruitofloom wrote: ...
I agree that the "just trolls" argument is false, but it is a very easy one to make and evidence for it is plenty.
Oh yes. Evidence is plenty.


As far i can tell: previous disagreement, you could work around. This one is really down your throat (as of yet, of course). There is no option but leaving (for the ones who ... you got it).

If, say, a 100 hundred devs decide to go for a new distro, or to give a hand in an existing one, then i can see a shiny future. As of now that ois the best i can dream of (regarding what some call Linux, else i still dream of "airs" and "handplants" and i carve through the pool as if i were still 17, like a mad dog, that is. Succeeded in a drop-in on a 2 meter miniramp the other night. Whew ... ).

iow: To me, now and here, Linux doesn't say much anymore. It opens a webbrowser, and thats about it (just like any other OS out there). Else it is an option to speak/learn English.

------------------------
the outcome will be enlightening.
We agree on that one too (was clear already, huh?).
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#112 Post by fleabus »

fruitofloom wrote:If, say, a 100 hundred devs decide to go for a new distro, or to give a hand in an existing one, then i can see a shiny future.
My own fondest hope. Well. That is to say I agree completely with dilberts re "Debian goodness" and that fondest hope would center around a future Debian based solution/spinoff that could safely use Debian repos without the worry of assimilation. Yes, that's already possible. A bit hacky, must be carefully watched, but it's early yet. And perhaps I'm talking totally out the wrong end.
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 03:03, edited 1 time in total.
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fruitofloom
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#113 Post by fruitofloom »

Sure, a solution *inside* of Debian would be way better.
I had in mind "worst case scenario".

I mainly said that as i really can't see much outcome in what people call "a fork". I doubt they realize what they are speaking of.
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#114 Post by Linadian »

See this post for a quote from Dragora's Wiki, oh the irony. :?
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fleabus
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#115 Post by fleabus »

fruitofloom wrote:.... can't see much outcome in what people call "a fork". I doubt they realize what they are speaking of.
You're right about that, a true fork of the entire system would be a gargantuan undertaking.
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-24 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
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mmix
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#116 Post by mmix »

http://www.shrubbery.net/jokes/MtXinu42poster.jpg

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/static/docs/taoup.pdf
The lesson for the future is that
over-committing to any one technology or business model would be a mistake — and maintaining
the adaptive flexibility of our software and the design tradition that goes with it is correspondingly
imperative.
Last edited by mmix on 2014-11-15 01:08, edited 1 time in total.

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buntunub
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#117 Post by buntunub »

I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd. When the Systemd proponents claim that the Systemd opponents are nothing but trolls and crackpots, it is posts precisely like these that they are referring to, and give them fuel. Stop it!

We have already uncermoniously removed one troll from our midst on the other forum, and we will proactively remove more, if need be. Our cause is too important to risk to people who have no clue on how to post or understand netiket.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#118 Post by golinux »

buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.
Agreed. Easily nuked with AdBlock.
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#119 Post by keithpeter »

buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.
Probably meant as light humour. The posting of crude cartoons with captions has been a popular response to unpopular policies since the time of Hogarth in the UK. I accept the practice may be culturally specific. I have replaced my image of Krapp recording his last tape with a much smaller one.
buntunub wrote: When the Systemd proponents claim that the Systemd opponents are nothing but trolls and crackpots, it is posts precisely like these that they are referring to, and give them fuel. Stop it!
I suspect it is more the perhaps overheated *words* that some people post that fit into the narrative being constructed around 'enterprise' and 'modernity' and 'standardisation' that allow the more vigorous proponents of radical change in Linux to label *all* of those who oppose them as Luddites or loonies. But I shall comply.

Back on topic: what will I do about systemd? Not a lot. I shall continue to run Sid, I shall experiment with systemd-shim and post what I hope will be useful bug reports. I shall revisit the 'old-school' desktop when Jessie goes stable - dwm works surprisingly well on a small laptop screen. I shall continue to run another distribution of GNU/Linux on the typing box as I always have. Debian Developers will continue to 'discuss' systemd, wayland, desktop integration, and the need to syncronise release dates with major upstream components. The sun will shine as much as it can reasonably be expected to at 52.5 degrees North in November.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#120 Post by swirler »

I've voted for just keep using sysvinit regardless of its alleged limitations as my first choice,realistically hoping that in the meantime a realiable version of uselessd is developed,in line with the standards of efficiency and transparency in Debian.
Truth to tell,I don't t really understand these technical matters,yet based on what little I've read I don't trust systemd,it goes against the basic principle of not substituting something simple that just works with something complex that does many things at once.
We know what these complex processes can (eventually) be exploited for.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#121 Post by fruitofloom »

keithpeter wrote:
buntunub wrote:I really don't get why people feel the need to post huge unrelated pictures of stupid sh$t in reference to Debians use of Systemd.
Probably meant as light humour. The posting of crude cartoons with captions has been a popular response to unpopular policies since the time of Hogarth in the UK.
Didn't know of Hogarth and such.
Back then, when the new staff was introduced and started to ban users, censor, edit posts and remove posts, each second post contained pointless images, 4-chan-like.
Ain't even close to that, the 5 or 6 pictures which have been posted (and mmx sure didn't post several).

I can't see an important cause.
People getting murdered by a drone (in the end by Obama) is a seriuous cause, in my book.

Besides that everything regarding systemd and the possible solutions has already been said. And it has been said a dozen times.
No need to keep on saying it. Either make the according change or don't, but stay sersious? Of what use might that be?
(as if anyone would care what random people in a random forum have to say).

Let me quote Zappa:
Does humor belong in computing
(nah, he didn't say computing).

--------------
swirler:
if you like have a look at refracta:
http://refracta.freeforums.org/proto-re ... -t440.html
might be they will get it sorted for jessie-stable.
Give me convenience or give me death.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#122 Post by Linadian »

If these links have been posted in this thread already, I apologize in advance (I really didn't want to scour all 9 pages to find out), I just think they might be some good reading on the subject. Make no mistake, I am still very much against poetthatd (virusd, systemd, same thing), and I'll be switching to either Debian kfreebsd or any other non-virusd distro (see this thread courtesy of fruitofloom). iTWire Story about why Debian is dumping the kfreebsd port because of virusd here (but Debian welcomes devs to maintain a non-official port, gee, go figure).

Debian's rationale for using virusd here.

I'll save you the reading if your eyes are sore or you don't like reading long fluffy bologna, my bs decoder ring says "because other lemmings have jumped off the cliff, we're following them, wheeeeeeeee, because we're sheeples like dat". :wink: :lol:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#123 Post by buntunub »

Linadian wrote:If these links have been posted in this thread already, I apologize in advance (I really didn't want to scour all 9 pages to find out), I just think they might be some good reading on the subject. Make no mistake, I am still very much against poetthatd (virusd, systemd, same thing), and I'll be switching to either Debian kfreebsd or any other non-virusd distro (see this thread courtesy of fruitofloom). iTWire Story about why Debian is dumping the kfreebsd port because of virusd here (but Debian welcomes devs to maintain a non-official port, gee, go figure).

Debian's rationale for using virusd here.

I'll save you the reading if your eyes are sore or you don't like reading long fluffy bologna, my bs decoder ring says "because other lemmings have jumped off the cliff, we're following them, wheeeeeeeee, because we're sheeples like dat". :wink: :lol:
Nice. Debian is making the move to Systemd preemptively because some people on the board believe that it is the smart thing to do to stay with the trends in the general marketplace, so to speak. What that really means is that there is very strong Corporate influence pulling the strings. Not just for Debian, but for all the major Distros. This is what the money machines want, and Linux provides a damned attractive (read free as in there are no licensing fees; just setup/maintenance costs) for the big moneyed interests. Red Hat is already paving the way and has been for quite a long time now. So there's that. And then there are the silent majority of Linux users who just want a damned free system that works likes Windows. Not in the proprietary sense, but they want something that, "just works". Well, "just works" has a heavy price tag that comes with it. "Just works" means that users don't want to have to think about anything or futz with any command line doohicky. They just want to install their free Linux thingy and be done with it, and then work or play games on it. This is what A LOT of people have been crying crocodile tears about for longer than I have been using Linux.

And so here we are. The future of Linux. There is a definite parallel with trends in the real world as well. It has been said that, "Freedom dies to thundrous applause". I think there is a strong ring of truth to that statement and we are watching it play out right in front of our eyes now.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#124 Post by thanatos_incarnate »

So, I've been keeping away from this discussion since it has started, but I will just quickly give my impressions
of a newly installed Debian Jessie system with systemd, slim login manager, openbox and a few programmes and scripts.
This is a notebook used as an all-around-desktop machine.
I usually choose stability over fresh packages, meaning that I'd have removed this system if it had even the smallest annoying bugs.

* Things work as they did before (settings, personal bash scripts, etc.)
* I can still do all the command line doohicky as someone here named it
* The programmes aren't faster or slower as on Wheezy, but I appreciate the new versions
* The system boots/shuts down/sleeps/resumes much faster than before
* Fewer bugs than a similar custom set up on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS (!)
* I had to adjust a few scripts that have to do with shutdown/restart/suspend/hibernate
* It's still all open source and DFSG

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#125 Post by keithpeter »

@buntunub: A couple of remarks...

1) Redhat rather like their licencing fees I think, as do Oracle. The Money Machines have to actually make some money!

2) I *think* it may be possible and technically desirable to deliver a 'just works' desktop or server a) without using abstraction upon abstraction and b) using core components with well defined interfaces that c) will work with other core components of differing versions thus giving distributions freedom to mix and match.

It will probably take a couple of decades for the message to sink in. C'est La Vie.
Last edited by keithpeter on 2014-11-17 09:44, edited 1 time in total.

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