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What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes: 87

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Linadian
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Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: What should we do about systemd?

#181 Post by Linadian »

Naron wrote:I do not understand why people hate so much systemd. There are objective (technical) arguments against systemd?
I'm a simple user, without any technical knowledge, but I feel, after I read the discussions from here, that the arguments against systemd are more emotional than technical.
I read what other people say about systemd and it does not seem so bad.
That's why I ask here.
Because metaphorically, it's the software equivalent of an alien penetrating your brain and nervous system with numerous worm-like tentacles and operating your body and personality like you're a zombie being controlled by the Borg, and because the main dev little snot thinks the rest of the world should write their software around his beta $#1+, he's a f#%king little ladder climber that works for a corporation, desperately seeking fame and a name for himself. The only thing he's achieving is infamy for dividing the (LIBRE) Linux world and possibly bringing it to its knees. If you don't understand the tech aspects or the politics then maybe you're using the wrong distro and you're in the wrong forum, maybe Ubuntu might be better suited to you.

Ya know, this disturbing trend started with Debian licking Canonical's feces exit orifice, now they're extending their tongue to Redhat, hence my new name for Debian, Redshat+Ewbuntu+Debian=REDBUNTIAN.
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rhy7s
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#182 Post by rhy7s »

Linadian wrote:
Naron wrote:I do not understand why people hate so much systemd. There are objective (technical) arguments against systemd?
I'm a simple user, without any technical knowledge, but I feel, after I read the discussions from here, that the arguments against systemd are more emotional than technical.
I read what other people say about systemd and it does not seem so bad.
That's why I ask here.
Because metaphorically, it's the software equivalent of an alien penetrating your brain and nervous system with numerous worm-like tentacles and operating your body and personality like you're a zombie being controlled by the Borg, and because the main dev little snot thinks the rest of the world should write their software around his beta $#1+, he's a f#%king little ladder climber that works for a corporation, desperately seeking fame and a name for himself. The only thing he's achieving is infamy for dividing the (LIBRE) Linux world and possibly bringing it to its knees. If you don't understand the tech aspects or the politics then maybe you're using the wrong distro and you're in the wrong forum, maybe Ubuntu might be better suited to you.

Ya know, this disturbing trend started with Debian licking Canonical's feces exit orifice, now they're extending their tongue to Redhat, hence my new name for Debian, Redshat+Ewbuntu+Debian=REDBUNTIAN.
I'm not totally comfortable with the way things are going, but you haven't answered the question posed. Metaphor, ad-hominem, appeal to motive, some sort of secret club or appeal to authority, crudity. It doesn't instil confidence in your position. I understand you're discomforted by the situation we're in, maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#183 Post by edbarx »

My little daemon could also load Debian. With more tweaking it can be yet another OS initialisation option. You may wonder why I am doing this: I don't blame you for asking why someone would go through all the pain of recreating yet another init system, notwithstanding it is a really small one.

My aim, is to prove that there are open ways that freedom lovers can take, but they demand a lot of courage and perseverance.

This is more than enough coding and tweaking for today.


The daemon's code is the following, although not matured, as it needs to respond to process handling signals.

Code: Select all

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/wait.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <syslog.h>
#include <string.h>



int main(void) {
	// Our process ID and Session ID 
	pid_t pid, sid;
       
	// Fork off the parent process 
	pid = fork();
	if (pid < 0) return -1; //failure
	
	
	// If we got a good PID, then we can exit the parent process.
	//if (pid > 0) return 0;

	// Change the file mode mask
	umask(0);
               
	// Open any logs here       
               
	// Create a new SID for the child process
	sid = setsid();
	if (sid < 0) {
	// Log the failure
		return -2;
	}
       

	// Change the current working directory
	if ((chdir("/")) < 0) {
		// Log the failure
		return -3;
	}
	
	//bool shell_avail = (system(0) != 0);
	system("/boot/os_loader");
    
	// Close out the standard file descriptors 
	close(STDIN_FILENO);
	close(STDOUT_FILENO);
	close(STDERR_FILENO);
       
	// Daemon-specific initialization goes here
	// The Infinite Loop
	while (1) {
		// Do some task here
		wait(0);
		sleep(1); 
	}
	
	return 0;
} 
/boot/os_loader is a script to load the necessary daemons/services.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#184 Post by Linadian »

rhy7s wrote:It doesn't instil confidence in your position. I understand you're discomforted by the situation we're in, maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?
This person's page has about 5 related links in it, enjoy. Like I said previously, if anybody doesn't fully understand the implications virusd, then they haven't done their reading before opening their mouths.
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anastasis
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#185 Post by anastasis »

57% of voters have opted for something besides D) accept systemd and continue using Debian.

57%, folks.

Those numbers don't lie even in a small cross section.

GNU/Linux really, honest to goodness, is becoming like Microsoft Windows in its development approach. It is antithetical to the Unix blueprint. You'll remember that centralization began in Microsoft with Windows--the DE. Centralization in this case is being driven by the DE as well--GNOME. If it keeps going in this direction, and hear me out because this isn't conspiracy theory, you will see a day when there is nothing separating the GNOME DE from the systemd init from the Linux kernel. It will have all been centralized.

Then you will have your worst nightmare, because there will be NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between your nemesis MS and you. You will have become what you hated most.

What is happening in the GNU/Linux world is astonishing to me. I never thought I would see this. I just never did.

I am honestly taken aback by this resolution from Debian development.

I think I can truly say that after this resolution, Debian is effectively no longer what it once was. For too many years now it has let itself become infiltrated with development that is simply adversarial to the Debian social contract.

Debian Squeeze was the last Debian distro. Debian sold its soul at its finest hour.

UNBELIEVABLE.

Now, there is really no structural difference in Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, or OpenSuse. Systemd has taken over. And people are going to regret this. And I mean big time.

In retrospect, I now long for the days of 2005 when SUSE and KDE were kings of the hill. Those were better days and at least development was going in a GNU friendly direction.

And then came U-know-who.

There's only one question I would like every GNU/Linux user in the world to contemplate for a moment, which is "What are these idiots doing to my system?"

If this truly is the final resolution of Debian development, then I will financially SUPPORT and DEMAND a FORK at all cost and in all haste!

No, Debian, damn YOUR torpedoes!

I CAME TO DEBIAN TO GET AWAY FROM CENTRALIZATION, YOU BUNCH OF APE-LIKE NUMBSKULLS! :x
Last edited by anastasis on 2014-11-21 18:29, edited 3 times in total.
"He might be a German, but he ain't no Einstein."

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Linadian
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#186 Post by Linadian »

keithpeter wrote: Steady on chaps.

You have a year of Wheezy at least probably 18 months. The Refracta crew are brewing their strange brews. There was a person on Debian-Users a few weeks ago asking for help with an Etch install. One hopes (s)he was sitting the PC behind a decent hardware firewall. If the systemd decliners can muster sufficient resources, there will be a viable 'light' sysvinit desktop under Jessie.

That all buys time. Alternatives will emerge.
You're right, and I've decided to use Redbuntian Wheezy for as long as I can, it likes the fakeraid on both my machines, I can't see going non-fakeraid yet, that goes against the point of my PC builds (I'm praying the Debhat hierarchy throw us a bone and make Wheezy LTS, that's if they have an ounce of compassion or decency left). Speaking of my old machine, I installed Wheezy to turn the old girl in to a backup workstation now that I'm done testing Debhat replacements (complete with office-like wallpaper, standard-ish GUI settings, etc), I love the (legacy) sound of 4 HDDs grinding away, lol, no such sounds on the new machine (SSDs + a very quiet single platter HDD). :mrgreen:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#187 Post by keithpeter »

rhy7s wrote:...maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?
Actually, no I can't. And that worries me, so I might just try to pop one out over the weekend. In the mean time, have a look at

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/

and links from there, as well as the technical assessments that were carried out by the Debian Technical Committee, a number of whom have since resigned.

EDIT: have a look at this vision of the future from a PC-BSD developer.

http://www.slideshare.net/iXsystems/jor ... t-10-years

Slides 21 to 30 or so make a pretty good case for *something like* systemd in my opinion. But you just sort of know the *BSD people will establish a stable plan for the interfaces and then implement their plan so upstream and users (server people) know what is happening. One criticism of the wider systemd project is its rapid expansion and apparent lack of forward planning. I'm convinced that slide 27 (new mountains to climb for new developers) is more important than people think.

mmix
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#188 Post by mmix »

funny

Systemd Forward Secure Sealing of System Logs Makes Little Sense
http://louwrentius.com/systemd-forward- ... sense.html

DBus, FreeDesktop, and lots of madness
http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/ ... _26_01.txt

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What should we do about systemd?

#189 Post by Linadian »

DW Weekly's Debhat init vote story here.
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Linadian
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#190 Post by Linadian »

Details about DebianFork dot org's 'Devuan' in this post. It's now a 'distro/project'.
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Linadian
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#191 Post by Linadian »

This is an interesting take on systemd from Texstar of PCLinuxOS.

lol @ "<enter tin foil hat mode>"
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jobine702
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#192 Post by jobine702 »

While you all are bitching about systemD, i've just embraced it.... and switched to Fedora/CentOS :)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#193 Post by golinux »

jobine702 wrote:While you all are bitching about systemD, i've just embraced it.... and switched to Fedora/CentOS :)
IIRC CentOS is not yet infected with virusd.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#194 Post by edbarx »

The Unix Veterans' concoction will soon take over systemd on this computer, and many, many others....
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#195 Post by golinux »

edbarx wrote:The Unix Veterans' concoction will soon take over systemd on this computer, and many, many others....
I may be wrong about this but chatter on the IRC, has me concerned that systemd-logind and systemd-shim are going to be part of their 'concoction'. That's unacceptable. I want a distro completely decontaminated of all systemd libs.
May the FORK be with you!

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#196 Post by schnuller »

From what i understood i read it the same way like you. Also that systemd will be included too.
The point is that it will be optional.
( One might argue that systemd + libs is optional in Debian too. I can't comment on that).

I think it is too early to say anything.
I am sure not holding my breath.
I hope it will succeed.
Until then (when we will know something for sure): The other options for me (Once used to them i see no reason to go back, i assume. Other distros have their advantages too).

Your way to think doesn't sound uncommon for them. I assume you will at least be able to speak about such problems ("how can i avoid the libs too?").

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#197 Post by golinux »

There was a little different tune on IRC a few hours ago.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#198 Post by schnuller »

My point was that there is a different tune every 10 minutes.

I don't consider that a bad thing, or a reason to think bad of "them" (once we know who is "them" we are already a step forward).

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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#199 Post by golinux »

schnuller wrote:My point was that there is a different tune every 10 minutes.

I don't consider that a bad thing, or a reason to think bad of "them" (once we know who is "them" we are already a step forward).
This is one of the players. He's been frequently on IRC. Gives me hope . . .
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

#200 Post by Linadian »

I just had to copy and paste this before DW rips it down...
89 • Yet more systemd clarification (by cykodrone on 2014-12-01 03:41:45 GMT from Canada)
*sigh*, the main issue is not so much about any one piece or group of software, it's about developers having to write apps and DEs around ANY beta lock-in app, process, init, whatever.

Heres a scenario, just an example fanbois so please relax, let's say you really like a particular text editor and there is no systemd in your installed OS, so you select it for install via CL or GUI package installer, then you get this huge list of dependencies including low level system changing packages, now back in the day, this wouldn't happen, your favourite text editor would just drag in ESSENTIAL dependencies to make it work, in the new world, it's quite possible that your choice of text editor (or major app 'x') may drag in fundamental system changes (and possibly trash your install), right down to the layer that lies just above the Linux kernel and between you, your apps and your hardware. Some people are not comfortable with this, me included, I do not need or want a beta blob controlling 99% of my system, complete with secretive binary log files and dictating to me what 3rd party apps and DEs I can and cannot install, especially if I didn't want or ask for a new init system or any other piece of software in the first place.

3rd party app developers will eventually be FORCED to write everything AROUND systemd, in other words, everything will become dependent on systemd to work (this is a software dictatorship in the making, a slippery slope), including the OS and your choice of DE. Everyday user land apps should NEVER drag in an init system as a dependency, this is a low level OS layer. That would be like VLC saying you can only use it on distro 'x'. Do you see the insanity now?

I coined a new term, "distros will become an add-on to systemd", read that over again a few times, let it sink in. The lines are getting blurred, will you be using a Linux distro or a systemd distro in the future?

If what Lennart REALLY wants to do is write his own OS kernel, then that's what he should do, instead of being a barnacle on somebody elses. He can call it Lennux.
If it's too off topic, I'll remove it.
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