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Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-18 23:56
by fleabus
Well.. Soon we could all be running Lennux, along with three or four simultaneous malware scanners.... :wink:

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 00:02
by tomazzi
fleabus wrote:Well.. Soon we could all be running Lennux, along with three or four simultaneous malware scanners.... :wink:

It's only my suspiction, which can be entirely wrong, but I'm going to say a few sentences here:
First, RedHat is fighting with Oracle for years. Oracle have started the war by offering support services for the (then exclusively RedHat) OS. RedHad responded in a very predictable way: "Hiding" patches and new features for Linux kernel...
That however showed up to be insufficient, because at some point, sooner or later, the changes would have to land as an "upstream" patches, which are easy to grab/take over.

And I think, that with systemd, RedHat is going to "take the leadership" of linux again, by enforcing it's own solution. Since all the systemd developers are paid RedHat employees, then they can take over the service market (in all of the aspects).

Unfortunately, new solutions needs testing, before they can be accepted by the customers - so they've tried Fedora as a testing ground, and Arch have joined as a volounteer. This however was not sufficient to convince serious customers which were running hundreds of servers. RedHat needed some really wide deplyment to prove that their solution is even worth attention.

How to do this? Buy Debian - the most widely deployed Linux distro...

So, in that aspect we are victims of the war between 2 corporations - and RedHat is going to win at least this single battle...

RedHat and Debian are both the most frequently used distros (on servers) - and the systemd code is shit (because corporations are leaded by bookkepers, not by engineers). This may lead to two kinds of disasters:
First: Oracle wins by prooving that RedHat is now unable to provide rock-solid solutions - and if this will happen, then we are all in the big shit.
Second: Oracle will give up and accept leadership of RedHat: we are all going to use a software resulting from a microshit-like development model, full of security holes.

systemd has to be abandoned or re-written from ground-up. We need reliable software, which is not created for or used as a weapon in inter-corporation war, which is commanded by bookkeeprs...

Regards.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 00:11
by fleabus
[removed by fleabus -- redundant]

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 02:18
by Linadian
tomazzi wrote:
Linadian wrote:The ships are leaving the rats, lol. :shock: :wink: :lol:

I can't see anything funny in those links - for me, it's a sign of incoming disaster...

I don't find it funny either, it was my play on words joke that was supposed to be funny. Truth be told, this will turn my world upside down, no more dual SSD fakeraid Raid 0, Brother supplies a printer driver that works in Debian (the CUPS driver sucks, it stopped working properly many kernels ago) and I'll miss the huge repos. I was going to make a modest donation, but sys-choke-d kyboshed that. So now, if I can't get my printer working (properly, not buggy) in Salix, PCLinuxOS or PC-BSD, I'll either have to buy a new Linux compatible printer or be forced back to Windhose (that OS that vacuums money and your rights), I'd rather stick red hot torch heated nails in my eyes before going back to Windhose. The loss of Raid I can deal with, but a printer and good functionality, stability, are a must. Debian can shove spywared up their keester, I won't be a Debdows guinea pig. :evil:

Edit: Forgot one more thing, I was able to get my Via Technologies USB 3.0 controller working too, see this post. AMD's IOMMU and a proprietary USB 3.0 chip are no easy task in other distros, oddly enough, the USB 2.0 port mouse works and so does the 3.0 ports with IOMMU disabled (default) in i686 PCLinuxOS Trinity Live, strange that, same with the printer, when I switched over to 64-bit anything, it's been a bitch to get working. So again, all those fix hunts and troubleshooting FOR F#%KING NOTHING. :twisted:

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 03:20
by s2pido
For desktop computing, debian isn't relevant. Regardless of distro, the entirety of Linux desktop computing isn't relevant.
Oracle vs RedHat might be meaningful (relevant) in the context of corporate workstations, but not in the context of PC purchasing end users.

Yes, printer support kinda sucks. In a corporate workplace, workstation user can (probably usually do) send their documents to networked print servers.
At home, you can chuck CUPS ('cept for the bit apparently needed to support PDF viewing) and print your documents from another PC.
Who sez (not me) that a "proper desktop PC" must have ability to print? Following that train of thought, who the HELL (not me) thinks it's a bright idea to distribute a "desktop o/s" preinstalled with ssh _server_ component? Hey, for extra "Duh!" ...let's preconfigure it with remote root login enabled. Seriously, lotta stuff preinstalled by Debian isn't sane (nor safe) for inclusion on a PC which will (only ever) serve as a desktop computer.

We users think of it as being "our" distro, but clearly it's not. We're facing a trend of "doacrats" repeatedly foisting ill-advised changes upon us, and NOT just at the o/s level. Refer to my earlier post to this forum (I haven't many) grousing about apps which are preinstalled, and /or preconfigured (within .deb package) to silently call out to various webservers. Naw, RedHat isn't "buying" Debian -- the annual revenue of Software in the Public Interest is (still) only about US 150k. PARTNERING, and bootlicking (yeah, and probably swag, and "gifts")... all things considered, RedHat is getting Debian in their pocket relatively cheaply. This corporatization, is it the inevitable product of human nature (ego, greed, politicking)?

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 03:25
by mmix
Debian Init System Coupling Vote Results
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTg0MzY

BTW, i imagine that systemd is result of reinvent wheel of android binder.
http://elinux.org/Android_Binder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBinder

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 03:30
by Linadian
s2pido wrote:Yes, printer support kinda sucks. In a corporate workplace, workstation user can (probably usually do) send their documents to networked print servers.
At home, you can chuck CUPS ('cept for the bit apparently needed to support PDF viewing) and print your documents from another PC.
Who sez (not me) that a "proper desktop PC" must have ability to print?

I hope that wasn't directed at me, I was merely stating the reasons I'll be pissed when I have to chuck all my Debian install disks in the garbage and wipe it off my machine, that's all, I never said Debian should be a preloaded n00b friendly blob or any other such bologna. If it wasn't directed at me, disregard this post. Have you ever installed a CL Brother printer driver? Trust me, few n00bs could pull it off properly or understand the pre-install tasks. :evil:

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 03:42
by Linadian
mmix wrote:Debian Init System Coupling Vote Results
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTg0MzY

I'm gathering we've (us users who apparently don't mean squat) been thrown to the wolves.

mmix wrote:BTW, i imagine that systemd is result of reinvent wheel of android binder.
http://elinux.org/Android_Binder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBinder

Well this is too funny, so Poett-hat ripped this idea off? He looks like a used feminine hygiene product.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 08:13
by mmix
now theseday, copy and paste code/idea is trend.
IMHO, $-oriented culture accelerated it more.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 08:15
by twoflowers
That was to be expected. Well, good bye Debian, was a good time while it lasted.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 08:35
by keithpeter
tomazzi wrote:And I think, that with systemd, RedHat is going to "take the leadership" of linux again, by enforcing it's own solution. Since all the systemd developers are paid RedHat employees, then they can take over the service market (in all of the aspects).

All source code available. Oracle can afford to (and do) pay bright people, and historically that is exactly what they have done.

Wider issues: I suspect there will still be Debian in 10 years. Could be 'branding' and development model for a Linux Common Core, could be something a bit different. Time will tell.

Food for thought: What is the median age of Debian developers? How has that statistic changed over the last 5 years? Could the recent turbulence in Debian's internal governance be a generational thing?

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 10:59
by mmix
google now uses clang as their production compiler for chrome linux builds
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTg0MTk

i am afraid that redhat mimic clang as yet another syst**d
and hype something new groundbreaking compiler. :P

because google did it.. heh

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 12:39
by fleabus
keithpeter wrote:Food for thought: What is the median age of Debian developers? How has that statistic changed over the last 5 years? Could the recent turbulence in Debian's internal governance be a generational thing?

Pushing 60 and I have a lot of thoughts that run in that direction these days.

The world belongs to the young; 'Twas ever thus. They know they need only wait a bit, and we'll be gone.
Each generation we older folks, along with our knowledge and views, become irrelevant.
We had our time. It's their time now.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 13:06
by fruitofloom
twoflowers wrote:That was to be expected. Well, good bye Debian

Pretty much that.

Re: What should we do about systemd?

PostPosted: 2014-11-19 20:04
by Linadian
fruitofloom wrote:
twoflowers wrote:That was to be expected. Well, good bye Debian

Pretty much that.

This is a very dark day indeed. I see no point in keeping Wheezy on my computer since it has no viable future.