What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-21 01:53

Naron wrote:I do not understand why people hate so much systemd. There are objective (technical) arguments against systemd?
I'm a simple user, without any technical knowledge, but I feel, after I read the discussions from here, that the arguments against systemd are more emotional than technical.
I read what other people say about systemd and it does not seem so bad.
That's why I ask here.

Because metaphorically, it's the software equivalent of an alien penetrating your brain and nervous system with numerous worm-like tentacles and operating your body and personality like you're a zombie being controlled by the Borg, and because the main dev little snot thinks the rest of the world should write their software around his beta $#1+, he's a f#%king little ladder climber that works for a corporation, desperately seeking fame and a name for himself. The only thing he's achieving is infamy for dividing the (LIBRE) Linux world and possibly bringing it to its knees. If you don't understand the tech aspects or the politics then maybe you're using the wrong distro and you're in the wrong forum, maybe Ubuntu might be better suited to you.

Ya know, this disturbing trend started with Debian licking Canonical's feces exit orifice, now they're extending their tongue to Redhat, hence my new name for Debian, Redshat+Ewbuntu+Debian=REDBUNTIAN.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby rhy7s » 2014-11-21 09:08

Linadian wrote:
Naron wrote:I do not understand why people hate so much systemd. There are objective (technical) arguments against systemd?
I'm a simple user, without any technical knowledge, but I feel, after I read the discussions from here, that the arguments against systemd are more emotional than technical.
I read what other people say about systemd and it does not seem so bad.
That's why I ask here.

Because metaphorically, it's the software equivalent of an alien penetrating your brain and nervous system with numerous worm-like tentacles and operating your body and personality like you're a zombie being controlled by the Borg, and because the main dev little snot thinks the rest of the world should write their software around his beta $#1+, he's a f#%king little ladder climber that works for a corporation, desperately seeking fame and a name for himself. The only thing he's achieving is infamy for dividing the (LIBRE) Linux world and possibly bringing it to its knees. If you don't understand the tech aspects or the politics then maybe you're using the wrong distro and you're in the wrong forum, maybe Ubuntu might be better suited to you.

Ya know, this disturbing trend started with Debian licking Canonical's feces exit orifice, now they're extending their tongue to Redhat, hence my new name for Debian, Redshat+Ewbuntu+Debian=REDBUNTIAN.

I'm not totally comfortable with the way things are going, but you haven't answered the question posed. Metaphor, ad-hominem, appeal to motive, some sort of secret club or appeal to authority, crudity. It doesn't instil confidence in your position. I understand you're discomforted by the situation we're in, maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-21 15:44

My little daemon could also load Debian. With more tweaking it can be yet another OS initialisation option. You may wonder why I am doing this: I don't blame you for asking why someone would go through all the pain of recreating yet another init system, notwithstanding it is a really small one.

My aim, is to prove that there are open ways that freedom lovers can take, but they demand a lot of courage and perseverance.

This is more than enough coding and tweaking for today.


The daemon's code is the following, although not matured, as it needs to respond to process handling signals.

Code: Select all
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/wait.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <syslog.h>
#include <string.h>



int main(void) {
   // Our process ID and Session ID
   pid_t pid, sid;
       
   // Fork off the parent process
   pid = fork();
   if (pid < 0) return -1; //failure
   
   
   // If we got a good PID, then we can exit the parent process.
   //if (pid > 0) return 0;

   // Change the file mode mask
   umask(0);
               
   // Open any logs here       
               
   // Create a new SID for the child process
   sid = setsid();
   if (sid < 0) {
   // Log the failure
      return -2;
   }
       

   // Change the current working directory
   if ((chdir("/")) < 0) {
      // Log the failure
      return -3;
   }
   
   //bool shell_avail = (system(0) != 0);
   system("/boot/os_loader");
   
   // Close out the standard file descriptors
   close(STDIN_FILENO);
   close(STDOUT_FILENO);
   close(STDERR_FILENO);
       
   // Daemon-specific initialization goes here
   // The Infinite Loop
   while (1) {
      // Do some task here
      wait(0);
      sleep(1);
   }
   
   return 0;
}


/boot/os_loader is a script to load the necessary daemons/services.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-21 17:39

rhy7s wrote:It doesn't instil confidence in your position. I understand you're discomforted by the situation we're in, maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?

This person's page has about 5 related links in it, enjoy. Like I said previously, if anybody doesn't fully understand the implications virusd, then they haven't done their reading before opening their mouths.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby anastasis » 2014-11-21 17:44

57% of voters have opted for something besides D) accept systemd and continue using Debian.

57%, folks.

Those numbers don't lie even in a small cross section.

GNU/Linux really, honest to goodness, is becoming like Microsoft Windows in its development approach. It is antithetical to the Unix blueprint. You'll remember that centralization began in Microsoft with Windows--the DE. Centralization in this case is being driven by the DE as well--GNOME. If it keeps going in this direction, and hear me out because this isn't conspiracy theory, you will see a day when there is nothing separating the GNOME DE from the systemd init from the Linux kernel. It will have all been centralized.

Then you will have your worst nightmare, because there will be NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE between your nemesis MS and you. You will have become what you hated most.

What is happening in the GNU/Linux world is astonishing to me. I never thought I would see this. I just never did.

I am honestly taken aback by this resolution from Debian development.

I think I can truly say that after this resolution, Debian is effectively no longer what it once was. For too many years now it has let itself become infiltrated with development that is simply adversarial to the Debian social contract.

Debian Squeeze was the last Debian distro. Debian sold its soul at its finest hour.

UNBELIEVABLE.

Now, there is really no structural difference in Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, or OpenSuse. Systemd has taken over. And people are going to regret this. And I mean big time.

In retrospect, I now long for the days of 2005 when SUSE and KDE were kings of the hill. Those were better days and at least development was going in a GNU friendly direction.

And then came U-know-who.

There's only one question I would like every GNU/Linux user in the world to contemplate for a moment, which is "What are these idiots doing to my system?"

If this truly is the final resolution of Debian development, then I will financially SUPPORT and DEMAND a FORK at all cost and in all haste!

No, Debian, damn YOUR torpedoes!

I CAME TO DEBIAN TO GET AWAY FROM CENTRALIZATION, YOU BUNCH OF APE-LIKE NUMBSKULLS! :x
Last edited by anastasis on 2014-11-21 18:29, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-21 18:08

keithpeter wrote:Steady on chaps.

You have a year of Wheezy at least probably 18 months. The Refracta crew are brewing their strange brews. There was a person on Debian-Users a few weeks ago asking for help with an Etch install. One hopes (s)he was sitting the PC behind a decent hardware firewall. If the systemd decliners can muster sufficient resources, there will be a viable 'light' sysvinit desktop under Jessie.

That all buys time. Alternatives will emerge.

You're right, and I've decided to use Redbuntian Wheezy for as long as I can, it likes the fakeraid on both my machines, I can't see going non-fakeraid yet, that goes against the point of my PC builds (I'm praying the Debhat hierarchy throw us a bone and make Wheezy LTS, that's if they have an ounce of compassion or decency left). Speaking of my old machine, I installed Wheezy to turn the old girl in to a backup workstation now that I'm done testing Debhat replacements (complete with office-like wallpaper, standard-ish GUI settings, etc), I love the (legacy) sound of 4 HDDs grinding away, lol, no such sounds on the new machine (SSDs + a very quiet single platter HDD). :mrgreen:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-21 19:35

rhy7s wrote:...maybe you could link to a synopsis that explains why?

Actually, no I can't. And that worries me, so I might just try to pop one out over the weekend. In the mean time, have a look at

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/

and links from there, as well as the technical assessments that were carried out by the Debian Technical Committee, a number of whom have since resigned.

EDIT: have a look at this vision of the future from a PC-BSD developer.

http://www.slideshare.net/iXsystems/jor ... t-10-years

Slides 21 to 30 or so make a pretty good case for *something like* systemd in my opinion. But you just sort of know the *BSD people will establish a stable plan for the interfaces and then implement their plan so upstream and users (server people) know what is happening. One criticism of the wider systemd project is its rapid expansion and apparent lack of forward planning. I'm convinced that slide 27 (new mountains to climb for new developers) is more important than people think.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby mmix » 2014-11-23 11:26

funny

Systemd Forward Secure Sealing of System Logs Makes Little Sense
http://louwrentius.com/systemd-forward- ... sense.html

DBus, FreeDesktop, and lots of madness
http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/ ... _26_01.txt
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What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-24 10:18

DW Weekly's Debhat init vote story here.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-28 03:06

Details about DebianFork dot org's 'Devuan' in this post. It's now a 'distro/project'.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-30 16:16

This is an interesting take on systemd from Texstar of PCLinuxOS.

lol @ "<enter tin foil hat mode>"
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby jobine702 » 2014-11-30 21:13

While you all are bitching about systemD, i've just embraced it.... and switched to Fedora/CentOS :)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-11-30 21:35

jobine702 wrote:While you all are bitching about systemD, i've just embraced it.... and switched to Fedora/CentOS :)

IIRC CentOS is not yet infected with virusd.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-30 23:22

The Unix Veterans' concoction will soon take over systemd on this computer, and many, many others....
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-12-01 00:18

edbarx wrote:The Unix Veterans' concoction will soon take over systemd on this computer, and many, many others....

I may be wrong about this but chatter on the IRC, has me concerned that systemd-logind and systemd-shim are going to be part of their 'concoction'. That's unacceptable. I want a distro completely decontaminated of all systemd libs.
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