What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2014-12-01 02:45

From what i understood i read it the same way like you. Also that systemd will be included too.
The point is that it will be optional.
( One might argue that systemd + libs is optional in Debian too. I can't comment on that).

I think it is too early to say anything.
I am sure not holding my breath.
I hope it will succeed.
Until then (when we will know something for sure): The other options for me (Once used to them i see no reason to go back, i assume. Other distros have their advantages too).

Your way to think doesn't sound uncommon for them. I assume you will at least be able to speak about such problems ("how can i avoid the libs too?").
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-12-01 02:48

There was a little different tune on IRC a few hours ago.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2014-12-01 02:50

My point was that there is a different tune every 10 minutes.

I don't consider that a bad thing, or a reason to think bad of "them" (once we know who is "them" we are already a step forward).
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-12-01 03:05

schnuller wrote:My point was that there is a different tune every 10 minutes.

I don't consider that a bad thing, or a reason to think bad of "them" (once we know who is "them" we are already a step forward).

This is one of the players. He's been frequently on IRC. Gives me hope . . .
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-12-01 06:13

I just had to copy and paste this before DW rips it down...
89 • Yet more systemd clarification (by cykodrone on 2014-12-01 03:41:45 GMT from Canada)
*sigh*, the main issue is not so much about any one piece or group of software, it's about developers having to write apps and DEs around ANY beta lock-in app, process, init, whatever.

Heres a scenario, just an example fanbois so please relax, let's say you really like a particular text editor and there is no systemd in your installed OS, so you select it for install via CL or GUI package installer, then you get this huge list of dependencies including low level system changing packages, now back in the day, this wouldn't happen, your favourite text editor would just drag in ESSENTIAL dependencies to make it work, in the new world, it's quite possible that your choice of text editor (or major app 'x') may drag in fundamental system changes (and possibly trash your install), right down to the layer that lies just above the Linux kernel and between you, your apps and your hardware. Some people are not comfortable with this, me included, I do not need or want a beta blob controlling 99% of my system, complete with secretive binary log files and dictating to me what 3rd party apps and DEs I can and cannot install, especially if I didn't want or ask for a new init system or any other piece of software in the first place.

3rd party app developers will eventually be FORCED to write everything AROUND systemd, in other words, everything will become dependent on systemd to work (this is a software dictatorship in the making, a slippery slope), including the OS and your choice of DE. Everyday user land apps should NEVER drag in an init system as a dependency, this is a low level OS layer. That would be like VLC saying you can only use it on distro 'x'. Do you see the insanity now?

I coined a new term, "distros will become an add-on to systemd", read that over again a few times, let it sink in. The lines are getting blurred, will you be using a Linux distro or a systemd distro in the future?

If what Lennart REALLY wants to do is write his own OS kernel, then that's what he should do, instead of being a barnacle on somebody elses. He can call it Lennux.

If it's too off topic, I'll remove it.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2014-12-01 07:56

golinux wrote:
schnuller wrote:My point was that there is a different tune every 10 minutes.

I don't consider that a bad thing, or a reason to think bad of "them" (once we know who is "them" we are already a step forward).

This is one of the players. He's been frequently on IRC. Gives me hope . . .

I also saw jaromil from dynebolic, which is even more promising (as it is a *working* community with with a given infrastructure).
J. Schilling (cdrecord, called wodim in debian) poped in to too, to ask what it's all about (the rest what talk bout systemd, operating systems like Solaris and other stuff i didn't understand). Sure not a nobody (yes, only as a guest, it seems. But it shows that people have interest, that people hear of it, etc), people of that kind can give a hand, and be it only by hosting something somewhere.

Thing is like it is: several people, several ideas, etc. Things need time to get stuff like that sorted. Might be me, i am only an observer. Perhaps everything is already way more clear than it looks to me (cause, as i said in the previous paragraph, if there are already people who know each other, a community, it gets more easy).

Back to what you posted: I am not that worried about including systemd libs (as long it is optional). Or other questions about the details. For now i really hope they will simply go on.

I fail to put my thoughts and feelings in plain words. Probably i am a bit confused, i ain't got clear feelings or thoughts, regarding the subject (mainly the debian fork, but systemd too, what do i think of Linux, what do i think of free software, etc)
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-12-01 09:57

Today, systemd hanged during boot while configuring the network. This is the second time I am experiencing trouble running systemd as PID 1. My contorted concoction of sysvinit booted without the least of issues. More trouble from the venerable systemd, unfortunately, does not help convincing me of its superiority. The booting sequence hanged waiting for the network configuration restarting the countdown every time it failed.

The error is:
Code: Select all
A start job is running for LSB: Raise network interfaces. (1min 3s)


After staying undecided for 1min 3s, systemd continued booting....
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-12-01 19:15

I coined yet another term...'Lenndows'. Debian+Gnome+systemd=Lenndows.

Edit: Aaaaaaannnnnnnd another two, lol, 'barnacled' and 'borgd'.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby chf2117 » 2014-12-23 19:45

As someone who uses Gnome in Wheezy for a personal laptop and plans to continue in Jessie, why should I switch to avoid systemd? There have been a lot of complaints about stability, but the developers seem to think otherwise and argue for its easy debuggability. I understand that systemd seems to be forcing users to adopt certain packages which goes against the spirit of linux. Is it enough of an intrusion that I should put in a fair bit of work to avoid using systemd when using it would be my default route?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-12-23 20:00

Read this post and think again:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119053&start=120#p563644
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby RU55EL » 2014-12-23 20:14

twoflowers wrote:Read this post and think again:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119053&start=120#p563644


But will that still be the case when Debian stable is Jessie?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2014-12-23 20:31

Most likely.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-12-23 20:46

May the FORK be with you!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2014-12-24 01:33

Those two links just describe two system critical bugs with Systemd. paah! That's small potatoes. Besides, the DDs will be forced to deal with them because they would be RC bugs for Jessie if the version of Systemd in Jessie is affected by them. The DDs wanted Systemd, now they will have to live with it. I will shed no tears of sympathy. :twisted:
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-12-24 08:37

Noted Linux expert Chris Siebenmann has described two catastrophic failures involving systemd.

One of the problems he encountered with systemd became apparent during a disastrous upgrade of a system from Fedora 20 to Fedora 21. It involved PID 1 segfaulting during the upgrade process. He isn't the only victim to suffer from this type of bad experience, either. The bug report for this problem is still showing a status of NEW, nearly a month after it was opened.

A segfault is better known as an Access Violation in the Windows world. This bug corroborates what tomazzi has been repeatedly saying, with systemd proponents telling everyone that there are no logical arguments against systemd. The problems with systemd are not the objectives behind its implementation, but the fact that is is still too early to be adopted by a serious distribution of a world reknown fame like Debian.
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