What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby reinob » 2014-11-01 22:32

tomazzi wrote:Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated ...


Hey, just like you. What a coincidence! :)

Don't be a jerk, and don't be uneducated. Be technical, and objective. Deal?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2014-11-02 10:32

reinob wrote:
tomazzi wrote:Yes, that's pretty much what i'm trying to tell You: systemd is created by jerks, who are thinking that they are geniuses - but in fact, they are simply uneducated ...


Hey, just like you. What a coincidence! :)

Don't be a jerk, and don't be uneducated. Be technical, and objective. Deal?


Here You have technical description of the most fundamental problem in systemd:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=117944&start=30#p558588

The above is my reaction on calling Open Source community peoples "a******s". That was very "technical" and "objective" - isn't it?
If You would read his responses to bugs reports, then You would quickly understand, that those "a******s" are just peoples who are pissed off due to ignorance and arrogance of this guy.

Everyone, who finds a bug, just don't undarstand that it's not a bug - it's a feature.
People, who says that systemd has important deficiencies and should not be adopted, are "a******s", who dont understand how clever and perfect systemd is.

...
Odi profanum vulgus
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-03 18:39

Or rename Debian?

Debhat
Redian
Poettian
Sheepian
Udebtu
Virusd

Got any more? Feel free to add to my list, lol. :mrgreen:

Edit: I like Debhat the best, it's my fave, "Remove the installation media to ensure you are booting from your new Debhat system", lol. :wink: :lol:
Last edited by Linadian on 2014-11-04 15:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-03 22:50

I am waiting for the DDs to drop the thermonuclear bomb i.e. mandate systemd in SID.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby golinux » 2014-11-03 23:22

edbarx wrote:I am waiting for the DDs to drop the thermonuclear bomb i.e. mandate systemd in SID.

I assume it will have to be before the 5th freeze date, Not much time left before BOOM!
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-04 08:25

SID has been installed complete with XFCE4. systemd is installed, but it is not being used. I will wait until DDs push systemd (aka virusd) down our throats irrespective of the fact that systemd is still in its embyonic stage and will reduce Debian to the pityful state of Windows 95, 98 and ME back in the nineties and early into the new millenium!

When the Thermonuclear BOMB is dropped, I will start my final battle against systemd: if I lose, I may turn to Salix, Slackware or something along those lines. This is obviously subject to whether the DDs decide to continue offering choice of OS initialisation programs. In that event, it will be a relaxed and peaceful use of Debian.

Code: Select all
void adapt_to_systemd()
{
     bool bomb_dropped;
     while (1) {
          bomb_dropped = (check_sid_for_systemd() == 1);
          if (bomb_dropped) break;
              else continue_using_wheezy_and_jessie();
    }

     int battle_won = start_final_battle();
     if (battle_won > 0)           // it takes some time to win a battle; -1 means battle lost
         continue_using_debian();
         else install_salix_or_equivalent();
}


Added Later:
In the event of failing to workaround systemd, between two evils, the most practical choice is that of choosing the least evil of the two. This means, if moving away from Debian requires more sacrifices than gains, the 'best' option would be the choice causing the least of sacrifices.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-04 15:41

edbarx wrote:I will wait until DDs push systemd (aka virusd) down our throats irrespective of the fact that systemd is still in its embyonic stage and will reduce Debian to the pityful state of Windows 95, 98 and ME back in the nineties and early into the new millenium!

You pretty much nailed it, Steve Ballmer once called Linux a "cancer", or was it FOSS, I forget, either way, I won't be using this Redhat/Poettering 'Medusa' (lots of tentacles/snakes to bring your whole system down), if I can't control anything, fully understand it or can't trust it completely, it does NOT stay on my machine, I don't give a $#1+ who wrote it or how many lemmings have jumped off the virusd cliff already. I can't wait for some pimply faced kid to find an exploit, then I'll be whizzing in my pants from laughing so hard. Redhat/Poettering, congrats, you're the new cancer of the Linux world, a dubious 'honour'.

From the latest openSUSE release Distrowatch package list:
• systemd-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-32bit-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-bash-completion-210-25.5.4.noarch.rpm
• systemd-logger-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm
• systemd-presets-branding-openSUSE-0.3.0-12.1.2.noarch.rpm
• systemd-rpm-macros-2-8.1.2.noarch.rpm
• systemd-sysvinit-210-25.5.4.x86_64.rpm

*puke*
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2014-11-04 19:23

Linadian wrote:if I can't control anything, fully understand it or can't trust it completely, it does NOT stay on my machine,
Really?
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-04 19:53

or can't trust it ... , it does NOT stay on my machine,

Really !
I assumed that had something to do with running Linux, and for sure with running Debian.
Why else all the mess with packaging and signing and exchanging gpg-keys?

Controling it ? Depends. If i want to i think software should allow me to control it. I think that was and is the main idea of what is called *free* software. No?

Fully understand? Rather not (but then: the more a distro is like a KISS, the more easy it is to understand. I sure prefer that approach. Like: If i want to understand it, then it is rather easy than hard, as easy as possible ).
Give me convenience or give me death.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-04 22:12

I found this relevant to my own feelings on the sysd thing (Not that good at expressing my feelings in words, always comes out wrong):

http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=4493&cid=108820
I fall on the side of the anti-systemd crowd for the very simple reason that all they are asking for is the same freedom of choice that brought most of them into the *nix world in the first place, whereas the pro-systemd crowd just seems to want everyone to be forced to use their brand new toy. No one has yet said anything on this issue that has convinced me I need to know more than that .... Choice is everything, or Linux becomes a joke to its most die-hard users and supporters. If systemd becomes an unremovable parasite on the kernel, even if it's a symbiotic parasite, those who do not wish to use it will simply flee the Linux world entirely. Can the Linux community survive losing a third or even a quarter of its developers over the next couple of years? It's an interesting question.

Now, obviously I agree right up until the part where he says he doesn't need to know any more. :) And I'm not sure that Linux is in danger of losing "a third to a quarter of its developers". I'd like to believe that those "doers" who become dissatisfied will devote their efforts to alternatives.

Re the "symbiotic parasite" thing, I am assuming a reference to the kdbus-in-the-kernel mess. Others have opined that sysd will then have "established a beachhead" in the kernel and that's the ballgame.

I'm encouraged by the efforts of edbarx, fsmithred, Void, Crux, and others trying sysd-free alternatives. I've discovered a real fondness for Slackware.
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 03:14, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-04 23:00

I too doubt it will lose that much developers (or users).
But then: what matters more is quality, compared to quantity.

In the long future, assuming systemd can't be anymore avoided in Linux at all, there will probably be more options than BSD ones.
They won't be as comfortable as Linux, just like BSD isn't as comfortable as Linux is right now, but i guess that is rather a good thing.
iow: i kinda agree that the movement (away from systemd, by this means or others) gains strenghts.

I got no crystal balls (plural, huh?), but that is how it looks to me.

quote by the dude of uselessd, iirc. Slightly related:
"Ultimately, the cruel irony is that in systemd’s attempt to supposedly unify the distributions, it has created a huge rift unlike any other and is exacerbating the long-present hostilities between desktop Linux and minimalist Linux sides at rates that are absolutely atypical."

Irony isn't even close to it.
Epic.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fleabus » 2014-11-04 23:14

fruitofloom wrote:....what matters more is quality, compared to quantity.
....there will probably be more options than BSD ones.

Yes. I'm going to take it a step further and hope that there'll be Linux options.
Last edited by fleabus on 2014-11-25 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-05 00:05

dilberts_left_nut wrote:
Linadian wrote:if I can't control anything, fully understand it or can't trust it completely, it does NOT stay on my machine,
Really?

Yep, really, I go to great lengths to find out what stuff is and what it does, I can read for hours. You should see me de-virus a Windows machine (ALL so-called 'anti-virus' scam-ware is useless), like picking nits of my pet's fur, nothing escapes me, I didn't get that good by a fluke or being a dumbass. :P
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Bulkley » 2014-11-05 00:27

I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm waiting & seeing. I'll probably go with whatever is in Jessie when the time comes. Fortunately I have several CD's with past Debian varieties (the oldest being Storm) that I can use on older machines if I so choose.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-05 01:25

Bulkley wrote:I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm waiting & seeing. I'll probably go with whatever is in Jessie when the time comes.

Actually, I've been thinking about this, if I'm going to have kernel invading corpware bloat forced on to my machine, I might as well go for a Debian Xfce on steroids, that would be Mint 17 Xfce (2 years system/apps LTS plus another 3 years security updates), a lot less work to install and at least I'll know where I stand, they make no bones or have no shame about anything, lol. :idea: :!: :roll: :lol:

I tried some other distros on my old machine today (4 HDD Raid 0), Mint was a challenge but it did go on the Raid, unlike the others. The only problem is, it's a double slap in the face, I'm not an Ubuntu fan either, but at least it's well maintained and polished.
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