What should we do about systemd?

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What should we do about systemd?

Poll ended at 2014-11-26 08:34

a) give up Debian to use another distribution which respects the *nix tradition
21
24%
b) concentrate on systemd's fork (uselessd) to port it to Debian
10
11%
c) use sysvinit (INIT) irrespective of its limitations with respect to modern software requirements
14
16%
d) use another initialisation system like runit
5
6%
e) accept systemd and continue using Debian
37
43%
 
Total votes : 87

Re:

Postby Hallvor » 2014-11-08 16:13

yzT wrote:I really don't understand what's the problem.


You don't understand the problem with people restricting other people's freedom of choice, and then calls them a**holes if they object?

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Ne ... bout-Rants

If all major distros, Debian included, are either using or planning to use systemd, it can't be as bad as you say.


This is nothing more than appeal to popularity

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/releva ... opularity/
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Re:

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-08 17:04

yzT wrote:I really don't understand what's the problem.

In that case stay silent.

The rest you posted was already commented. Not sure if it is worth a comment at all. If someone doesn't realize that he can ignore gnome, or even the GUI altogether, in case he doesn't like it, then further discussion doesn't seem to offer any gain. Hence my advice: Stay silent.
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Re:

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-08 17:43

yzT wrote:I really don't understand what's the problem.

Then you either don't understand FOSS or have no clue how to read or use a search engine.

Poettering is a PAID employee of Redhat, a corporation who's interest is to make money off of Linux, and it seems, control the rest of Linux world with their code. Poettering has tried to bully, guilt or shame Linus Torvalds in to injecting buggy code in to the Linux kernel to make virusd work and 'standardize' virusd. That's not the way the Linux world works, you get the vanilla kernel, you build around it, if you can't, that's YOUR problem. If Redhat and Poettering want a proprietary kernel, then let them build their own, not FORCE it on to the rest of us. Do some reading, get enlightened, there are aspects of virusd that don't sit well with a lot of people, like it wants to CONTROL almost everything on your system, the logs are opaque in binary form, it's not easily tweakable, etc, etc, etc. This is not in line with the GNU philosophy, if I want secretive blobs on my machine, I'd go back to Windows, this blob (virusd) also has the potentional to become an NSA backdoor spyware (it controls your networking, hmmm), this is not a tinfoil hat rant, corporations have been approached by the NSA and are cooperating with them. Get a clue or go back to Windows. :roll: :twisted:

Edited for grammar and spelling.
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Re: Re:

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-08 18:18

Linadian wrote:Poettering is a PAID employee of Redhat, a corporation who's interest is to make money off of Linux...

I'm all for people getting paid, and all for making money of both Linux and GNU and other GPLed code. More power to them, for they are implementing Richard Stallman's vision and refuting Bill Gates and (more recently) Jaron Lanier's position. And, as edbarx always likes to point out, we have the source code :twisted:

Linadian wrote:[...]and it seems, control the rest of Linux world with their code.

Nope, I genuinely think Lennart is just trying to deliver stuff that works for Red Hat and others. I suspect that it is the lack of other companies contributing that has lead to the huge tidal field that the systemd group are exerting.

Linadian wrote:If Redhat and Poettering want a proprietary kernel, then let them build their own, not FORCE it on to the rest of us.

We might not like systemd and the wider system (e.g. kdbus) but it is *not* proprietary. Lennart and his chums are 100% transparent and posting their code, unlike, say, nvidia. Their code is all GPLed. Can we try to keep the technical structure argument separate from the licence argument please? Otherwise the systemd people can claim FUD. See my earlier posts about how the the narrative is being constructed.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-08 18:30

On a side note:
"but it is open source"
is getting old.
It has become clear, long before systemd, that being open-source isn't enough (Ubuntu-Amazon, anyone? As one example).
Others have explained that in better words than i ever could.

Not sure why you call L. Poettering Lennart. Do you know him personally?

People tell FUD all the time anyway, no matter what the opponents say (not that i would be too happy with most comments about systemd, but that fear, we won't be taken serious, is not necessary. We are not taken serious, this way or the other. Example: I can't see how being a company is a bad thing per se --- One in NSA-land is another thing, of course ).
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Re: Re:

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-08 18:39

keithpeter wrote:
Linadian wrote:Poettering is a PAID employee of Redhat, a corporation who's interest is to make money off of Linux...

I'm all for people getting paid, and all for making money of both Linux and GNU and other GPLed code. More power to them, for they are implementing Richard Stallman's vision and refuting Bill Gates and (more recently) Jaron Lanier's position. And, as edbarx always likes to point out, we have the source code :twisted:

Linadian wrote:[...]and it seems, control the rest of Linux world with their code.

Nope, I genuinely think Lennart is just trying to deliver stuff that works for Red Hat and others. I suspect that it is the lack of other companies contributing that has lead to the huge tidal field that the systemd group are exerting.

Linadian wrote:If Redhat and Poettering want a proprietary kernel, then let them build their own, not FORCE it on to the rest of us.

We might not like systemd and the wider system (e.g. kdbus) but it is *not* proprietary. Lennart and his chums are 100% transparent and posting their code, unlike, say, nvidia. Their code is all GPLed. Can we try to keep the technical structure argument separate from the licence argument please? Otherwise the systemd people can claim FUD. See my earlier posts about how the the narrative is being constructed.

You didn't address how it wants to control almost everything on your system including networking and why they're insisting on binary logs. As for the money aspect, I don't care if Redsoft makes money off of GPL, good for them, but I should have the choice whether or not to have their code on my machine (or make it NOT handle networking, I find that very disturbing and alarming), that includes not being ingrained in a FOSS GPL kernel.
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Re: Re:

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-08 19:01

Linadian wrote:...
You didn't address how it wants to control almost everything on your system including networking and why they're insisting on binary logs.

'Provide services for' rather than 'control' and I believe you can switch off the binary logs and install text based logging (I read that somehwere reliable - I think it was the CentOS forum - but I'm no sysadmin) but yes, I take your point on the mudballification. And also this thing where the systemd authors keep changing the api from version to version so as a byproduct it is hard for the *-shim authors to keep up, and it imposes extra overhead on the various upstream projects. These are valid structural and implementation complains in my (totally unqualified) opinion. I just wanted to box off the licence and the money side of it.

Linadian wrote:As for the money aspect, I don't care if Redsoft makes money off of GPL, good for them, but I should have the choice whether or not to have their code on my machine (or make it NOT handle networking, I find that very disturbing and alarming), that includes not being ingrained in a FOSS GPL kernel.

You don't have to have any of their code at all, and we have listed various ways that can be achieved. I'm not sure how Mr Torvalds will react when they try to get kdbus back in the kernel but it will be fun to watch :twisted:

@fruitofloom (edit): GPL is stronger than 'open source' (i.e. BSD, Apache &c) in various ways. Ubuntu Unity Amazon search lens was just removing *one* binary package using apt-get and more recently a single button to click in config. Not sure how that example invalidates my confidence in the unruly mob that is the GNU/Linux world's ability to work round Lennart and his chums by using the source code for their own ends. I have no specific reason for using his first name, he is a very talented programmer and will probably get a really good job with Microsoft one day (and I'll celebrate when he does).

Perhaps this is the central issue? For Mr (Dr?) Poettering, a younger man, this is a career delivering value for his employer. Not a social mission. Times change.
Last edited by keithpeter on 2014-11-08 21:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-08 19:10

As soon as I learn how to change the default position of files in a package, my SID installation will have sysvinit installed in a way to bypass the effects of a forceful installation of systemd. Then, I will verify that systemd is installed and the system is not using it, I will kill systemd using replacement empty packages. At the end, I will confirm that my system is working properly, post a howto and inform the Debian Fork project of my little solution.

LONG LIFE CHOICE! :mrgreen: (pardon me for the capital letters)
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Re: Re:

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-08 21:25

keithpeter wrote:
@twoflowers: GPL is stronger than 'open source' (i.e. BSD, Apache &c) in various ways. Ubuntu Unity Amazon search lens was just removing *one* binary package using apt-get and more recently a single button to click in config. Not sure how that example invalidates my confidence in the unruly mob that is the GNU/Linux world's ability to work round Lennart and his chums by using the source code for their own ends. I have no specific reason for using his first name, he is a very talented programmer and will probably get a really good job with Microsoft one day (and I'll celebrate when he does).

Perhaps this is the central issue? For Mr (Dr?) Poettering, a younger man, this is a career delivering value for his employer. Not a social mission. Times change.

Assuming you meant me.
Ubuntu Amazon: The question is not if one can/could remove it or not.
My point was: To say "but it is open source" doesn't go very far. I simply gave one example. It was/is open source, but it is crap anyway.
Why on earth should i care if something is open source or not?

I got no idea what your rantings about L. Poettering are supposed to say. But in general i really got no interest in him, his career, his futural career, his employer, if he is young or old, a Dr. or not (I also ain't got interest in such questions when it comes to other programmers, btw).
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Re: Re:

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-08 21:49

fruitofloom wrote:Assuming you meant me.

Apologies for getting your user name wrong, I've edited the post.

I misunderstood your aside about 'open source'. What I was trying to say was that at the deep system level, having the source code means that other programmers can adapt and change the code. I wasn't claiming that the software compiled from the source code is perfect! But enough.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby fruitofloom » 2014-11-08 21:54

I think i understood that. Not too sure.
My point is: i for one ask for more than open source, than other programmers being able to look at or change the code. Hence to me "buit it is open source" says close to nothing ( i rather get in a fury in an instant than being happy about it).
Obviously i don't care much for the technical aspects of a computer (but for the social aspects of what i call free software).
I think i am close to the ChaosComputerClub too. (When i started with Linux i assumed it would be a crowd of anarchists, communists, activists ... Well: i seem to have been wrong. I will get over it ...).

But yeah, no need to go on with that forever.

PS: once we speak with each other: I am loving your link to free classical music. I think i found some good classical music at magnatune too (not too sure).
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-08 22:58

With an open and free to edit and compile source, solutions can be found to avoid using systemd, but like anything this requires some time. In my case, I am trying to use sysvinit on SID even when systemd is pushed down my throat. I want to see what the results will be before I count myself as defeated.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby Linadian » 2014-11-09 07:09

edbarx wrote:With an open and free to edit and compile source, solutions can be found to avoid using systemd, but like anything this requires some time. In my case, I am trying to use sysvinit on SID even when systemd is pushed down my throat. I want to see what the results will be before I count myself as defeated.

I for one really appreciate what you are doing, I really like Debian and will hate having to abandon Debhat. I'm waiting for the results of your very honourable endeavours with bated breath.

This next comment is in general to everyone...virusd is not like choosing which browser or text editor to use, this is a blob that's becoming mandatory, a blob that takes control of your system, written by an arrogant (and mouthy by all accounts) little prick. I for one don't like "negative billing" (making a comparison here), negative billing is when a service provider forces something on you without your knowledge (or some tiny fine-print only an ant could read) and makes you pay for it before you have a chance to cancel it or say no, this is what virusd is turning out to be, a negative option package install, inevitably causing a post OS install surgical removal of virusd, that's just ridiculous, no, beyond ridiculous. I don't want to run Debhat, I want to run Debian. :twisted:

What I don't get is there's a gazillion meta-packages for other things, why not make meta-packages for sysv and virusd, if virusd is in the default install, you simply uninstall the virusd meta-package which could be made to trigger the install of the sysv meta-package, so you're not left without an init system before the next boot (disaster). But that's just too simple and utopic, people and their egos are messed up, logical solutions and reasoning has gone out the window, they went down the road and got hit by a bus, a kdbus, lol.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby edbarx » 2014-11-09 07:20

My approach is to bypass what Debian DDs want to impose as an initialisation system. So, my packages will make no reference to any existing packages to avoid forced rejection by the package management system. If I succeed, my installation of Debian will still continue to assume systemd is the workhorse, but it will not be the case, as a disguised sysvinit will be in control. In fact, I am thinking about moving the entire contents of sysvinit and its dependencies to a new directory in the root directory. This to avoid any possible clashes as DDs are free to use the names of files found in sysvinit even for systemd and I want to avoid that situation.
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Re: What should we do about systemd?

Postby keithpeter » 2014-11-09 11:03

edbarx wrote:My approach is to bypass what Debian DDs want to impose as an initialisation system. So, my packages will make no reference to any existing packages to avoid forced rejection by the package management system. If I succeed, my installation of Debian will still continue to assume systemd is the workhorse, but it will not be the case, as a disguised sysvinit will be in control.[...]

I've got a laptop ready to test the results when you feel ready to release your packages. I'm a bit hazy about how your plan extends to logind and dbus and the bits needed by the various full-fat desktop systems, but if there is enough to sort out automounting of USB sticks, I can use the old-school desktop (see sig) with your init and achieve more than I can at present.

As I have said before, edbarx is actually *doing* what Stallman hoped people would do, and it is excellent to watch.

fruitofloom wrote:I think i am close to the ChaosComputerClub too. (When i started with Linux i assumed it would be a crowd of anarchists, communists, activists ... Well: i seem to have been wrong. I will get over it ...).

Still a few around. Have a look at Jaromil (https://jaromil.dyne.org/) and the goto10 group (http://goto10.org/ alas dormant but the artists themselves pop up now and again). As you like music, try SLUB (http://slub.org/ also 'resting' - having babies I suspect).

At the distro level, have a look at the new Blag Linux (google Blag mailing list) and at Dragora. Both project leaders are South American I *think* and seem quite determined.

Then there is http://doc.urbit.org/ (http://vimeo.com/75312418) for something completely different.
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