Where will you go after systemd?

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Where will you go after systemd?

BSD
12
16%
Linux without systemd
34
47%
Mac
2
3%
Windows
0
No votes
something totally different
1
1%
have not decided yet
24
33%
 
Total votes : 73

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby buntunub » 2015-01-21 03:46

While I agree in general with your sentiment, I could not make it through the wall of text to the end. Sorry.

Yes. People should read about Systemd before posting FUD. Debian has a very good wiki on it and that is a great place to start.

https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

systemd is a system and service manager for Linux. systemd is compatible with SysV and LSB init scripts. It can work as a drop-in replacement for sysvinit. Systemd

Provides aggressive parallelization capabilities
Uses socket and D-Bus activation for starting services
Offers on-demand starting of daemons
Implements transactional dependency-based service control logic
Tracks processes using Linux cgroups
Supports snapshotting and restoring
Maintains mount and automount points


Those are the reasons Debian voted to move to Systemd. Each of those points can be debated in terms of the extent of their advantages over SysV, if any, but these are the key points.

One thing I would like to point out again is that Systemd is compatible with SysV scripts, and makes use of many. It has been argued that Systemd is closer to the Unix model than SysV (although their argument falls far short of the, "do one thing well").

You can argue for or against any of the above points, but to inject FUD into the debate is pointless. The bus has left the station here, and further debate is basically just academic at this point.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby mean_dean » 2015-01-21 04:16

systemd is a system and service manager for Linux. systemd is compatible with SysV and LSB init scripts. It can work as a drop-in replacement for sysvinit. Systemd

Provides aggressive parallelization capabilities
Uses socket and D-Bus activation for starting services
Offers on-demand starting of daemons
Implements transactional dependency-based service control logic
Tracks processes using Linux cgroups
Supports snapshotting and restoring
Maintains mount and automount points

and dont forget

init system, journal logging, login management, device
management, temporary and volatile file management, binary
format registration, backlight save/restore, rfkill save/restore,
bootchart, readahead, encrypted storage setup, EFI/GPT partition
discovery, virtual machine/container registration, minimal
container management, hostname management, locale
management, time management, random seed management, sysctl
variable management, console managment, . . .

basically every basic thing is covered....or will be...
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2015-01-21 07:11

Yes, and that's the problem. Just look at the code and enjoy your scare ride ...
Last edited by twoflowers on 2015-01-21 08:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-21 07:57

Gets out digital Xmas card list, hmmmm, scrolls, where is it, AH ... there he is, buntunub, tick + delete. Messing around, I don't blame you, can't believe I spent all that time typing that monster! :)

What follows is said to be the response of the head-dev of systemd himself, addressing various concerns about the project. Granted it's 9mnth old, still relevant and some interesting (imo) info to be found.

Check out ... This.

Jmo also, not saying systemd is the bestest thing in da whole wide world either. I don't like everything about it. Though it does come with many benefits too. Like everything else ... pros vs cons situation. Hoping ( and my money is on) it'll get better as time passes and still think majority of people should just say a hearty THANK YOU to the development team behind systemd.

With that typed-said though. Also see that.

For just a few of the options, sheesh as always w opensource and Gnu/Nix, plenty more options out there in addition to those. Not even going to try to index this into a nutshell. Anyone who wants to can do their own homework. Am not an Arch fanboi, I like it, even though haven't used it in quite awhile. Still have grown to respect it's developer ( inner circle) and the knowledge of it's community + it's wiki of course. Fact that Arch adopted systemd as default in my book says much for it (systemd). If it were a vile POS from hades, no way that'd have happened.

The developer does offer Arch users many choices. 1. I've made up my mind, this is how it's going to be. 2. Do something for yourself and use one of the 100's of other options you have readily at your disposal OR 3. Hit the highway and stop using Arch linux.

Hey, it's simple, it's very honest and to me perfectly reasonable. Pros/cons, shrugs.

Jmo ... but here's another fundamental principle of opensource ( any OS or platform thereof, hybrid, combo, whatever.)

* X-user doesn't like something, switch to one of the probably MANY other options out there. Still not happy, keep doing it until happy.
* Cant find something that x-users likes, take one of the MANY other options and fiddle with it until it's what is preferred. If it turns out really good or useful, share it with the rest of the world and you'll be rewarded w 100's of virgins in the afterlife (of your choice). :D
* Roll up sleeves and x-user can make it themselves from scratch, w - w/o any of a gazillion other projs to use as a basis to get a head start on it.

So yeah, for whoever doesn't want to learn about or use one of their MANY, MANY, MANYYYYYY options, for those who just don't have the skills or determination ( are too lazy and whining is just so much easier-etc )to keep at it until they find what they want and get the job done and for those just along for the ride. The bus has left the station. Nothing wrong w that either, though the ride will be smoother and overall better for them, thanks to the development of systemd.

Just more typing practice and opinions here about this great init system debate. Not at all claiming my outlook is the only one. Am all for each their own and whatever they want to do/use blahblahblah, hey who's stopping you ? ;)

Plus even if systemd does suck all our souls out of eyeballs. We all have to admit/agree that Linux would still put M$ to shame. :D

Wasn't going to bother posting to this again. Though since I did, felt the need to clarify something. I owe Gnome an apology. Just cause it's not my preference or cuppa etc etc. Still can't say it's not a kickbutt desktop and that they aren't really friggin good at what they do too. With that my job in this thread is done. Yay ! Will quit assaulting everyone with walls of text.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-01-21 22:01

Are you a teenager?
(Don't hesitate: ejaculate ! That sure will give you bit of relief).

Sorry:
R U a teeng ?
:) !!! -- with u wo, nu? whats !? :-) :-) :-) !!!
Better?
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-01-21 23:27

Deb-fan wrote:(1) It's been under discussion for quite some time obviously and the need for a new init system well known among people who know such things.
...
(2) Pay attention & keep watching developments with systemd.

(3) SysVinit for sure needs to be replaced. It's decades old ...

(4) Then I see folks screaming, it's not documented, it's not well documented...

...

(5) That's why there's a development team and a head of the team. Because they and that head have the skills and knowledge to get whatever project done.

...

(6) As for the systemd is taking over EVERYTHING, omg, omg. It's actually a reasonable extension, what does an init system do afterall ? Many of the processes started after pid=1 or daemons/services started during the process handle many things/functions necessary for the OS to operate. Whether it's started by an initscript at one of the run-levels and properly shut down later or started/stopped a diff way. They HAVE to be up and running for the OS to run and be stable.

...

(7) It's "stateful", meaning it can tell what state a service is in. If a service that's supposed to be running isn't or crashes, part of the improvement is that systemd will detect this and try to resolve the issue and get the service back up and running. Obvious end result of this = a more stable operating system.

I don't want nor I have the time to read all the bullshits written byYou, but I think I can answer to some key points, so here it is:
1. Actually there was no consensus between Debian developers regarding the adoption of systemd, so Debian TC have made the decision for all the devs and users. IMO, when so important change is going to take place, the TC should choose stable and tested software and opt for using new and untested soft in... guess what? - experimental branch (what could also convince the oponents)

2. I do pay attention, and I'm reading source code of each new version of systemd - and exactly that's why I know that it's a shit, crap, or perhaps I should say: extremely low quality utter crap.

3. You are a moron: Software which was proven to work flawlessly for decades is worth billions of dollars. Testing is the most expensive and time-consuming part of any software project.

4. Systemd is wery well documented, and Your point is simply invalid. You should read the docs Yourself, before posting such bullshits.

5. I have proved, that the systemd devs are writting extremely bad code. Nothing more to add here...

6. As for systemd taking over everything:
Well, the existing software which those morons are trying to reinvent is proven to work and (again) well tested - the systemd "extensions" are not tested at all, they are not conformant to existing standards (like that shitty firewall which is lacking basic patches required by RFC) and are causing segfaults....

7. Bullshit made of lies. Systemd can kill the service, but it can't safely restart a hung/busy one - nobody and no software in the world can do this. Why? It's very simple: It's impossible to recover service context, what means transactions, databese records, etc.

You are just clueless fanboy.

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-22 00:35

Who is asking you to read/respond to anything ? The freebsd forum is thataway > I'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms am equally sure bsd users are sure to enjoy listening to all your bytching, whining, ignorance-etc etc and whatever conspiracy theories you can poop out to your hearts content. Dang it man, funny to see all these folks, I'M GOING TO BSD dang it, no really, I'm leaving this very instance, NOBODY try to stop me darn it, it's MY CHOICE dang it ! Lmao ... sheesh.


Nix mad hatters show up in Freebsd and will no doubt immediately start, this should be this way ( change it or at least learn what it is before you start whining), that should be like this ( same thing) whah !!!!!! Don't like systemd ? Quit whining, being a lazy tard and use another of the many options open to gnu/nixers.

The brief time I've been participating in this forum has certainly reminded me of why I quit coming around it in the 1st place. Yowza. Can definitely say, it's getting more and more difficult to find a gnu/nix community that isn't full of window$ users w delusions of grandeur, posing as Nixers, shrugs.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby n_hologram » 2015-01-22 00:40

Deb-fan wrote:ignorance-etc etc
bester69 wrote:There is nothing to install in linux, from time to time i go to google searching for something fresh to install in linux, but, there is nothing

the crunkbong project: scripts, operating system, the list goes on...
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby aicardi » 2015-01-22 00:53

I haven't had to use the ignore option in a while. :)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby golinux » 2015-01-22 01:04

aicardi wrote:I haven't had to use the ignore option in a while. :)

I haven't either but Deb-fan definitely passed my ignore threshold a week or two ago.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-01-22 01:14

Ha, ha
You are really showing Yourself as a clueless fanboy: You have failed to provide even single argument against my claims... what a pitty, but on the other hand, You've just confirmed (by avoiding the answer) that systemd fanboys have no clue nor arguments.... thats really funny.

But, I'm not going to be Your foe, I just do want to present things as they are, and I hate lies.
Since systemd adoption is based on several lies, I'm disappointed, and I feel that something really wrong have happened.

I'm not able (nor I whish to) to force anyone to do anything, so I have decided to just fork systemd. To be honest, I don't give a shit wheter someone besides me will take a benefit from my work. I'm doing it only due to selfish reasons, and if someone want to use my code, then it's his exclusive resposibility (or perhaps fault :) )
Especially, that I'm using even more experimental code than systemd does... - experimenting moves us forward, isn't it? ;)

For me, Debian have failed. And my solution is to write a "fake systemd", which will keep all the interfaces, so I can use all the software repos.

that's all, and I just don't care ...

Maybe, but just maybe, when I get bored, I'll write complete replacement for that shit called systemd, who knows...

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-22 01:24

Could go argue at a local insane asylum with someone claiming they're a chicken too. When I stand there shaking my head, they'd be like Ooooo look you didn't refute my claim that I'm a chicken, therefore I'm right ! Sheesh ... alright man, you're a chicken and no doubt an awesome and technically brilliant mind. :P

Over and out, don'tcha guys wear those tinfoil-hats in the rain kay ? Ya know sometimes that might attract lightning. LMAO !!!

:)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby mean_dean » 2015-01-22 02:51

I think it very unlike debian to choose systemd as default. I would not of been surprised for them to consider it for the release after jessie but certainly no sooner than that.

I am also disappointed that they chose to do this so far into the development of the jessie. It would of made more sense to release jessie and then immediately start the debate/discussion/flames/votes on this issue.

Add those two things together, along with the issues that the debate caused, and my confidence in debian drops considerably. It is another straw on the camels back and I am really on the fence as to whether the back is broke and beyond fixing for me.

I have no need or want of systemd. I do not want or need what it provides. Even if it did one or two things that I wanted I am unwilling to have it do fifty other things and needlessly complicate my very basic and simple system. I have no doubt that for many users/situations it is a desirable solution though. I have no opinion on systemd beyond that, the same as i have no opinion on a hundred other packages that I have no need/want of.

I do fear that in a few years sysv will be deprecated, nothing to do about it though.

So rather than having a few debian installs on my laptop I now have a couple debian installs and a openbsd install. hedging bets...for now....
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-01-22 06:38

mean_dean wrote:I think it very unlike debian to choose systemd as default. I would not of been surprised for them to consider it for the release after jessie but certainly no sooner than that.

I am also disappointed that they chose to do this so far into the development of the jessie. It would of made more sense to release jessie and then immediately start the debate/discussion/flames/votes on this issue.

Add those two things together, along with the issues that the debate caused, and my confidence in debian drops considerably. It is another straw on the camels back and I am really on the fence as to whether the back is broke and beyond fixing for me.

I have no need or want of systemd. I do not want or need what it provides. Even if it did one or two things that I wanted I am unwilling to have it do fifty other things and needlessly complicate my very basic and simple system. I have no doubt that for many users/situations it is a desirable solution though. I have no opinion on systemd beyond that, the same as i have no opinion on a hundred other packages that I have no need/want of.

I do fear that in a few years sysv will be deprecated, nothing to do about it though.

So rather than having a few debian installs on my laptop I now have a couple debian installs and a openbsd install. hedging bets...for now....

That is very well put.
It is pretty much the same situation and reasoning for me.

I think it is a safe bet that you, dean, can switch to OpenBSD (Or for sure away from Debian). Even if you decide to come back, in a couple of years, Debian is easy enough to remember the basic things and run it without any problems. For myself: i can't see me coming back.
Why? I for one can't see the possibility that the situation will change for the better anytime soon.

----
Future will tell what all kind of hardware manufacturers thinks of systemd (for example routers). From the little i know they already don't run what one calls: the latest and greatest (kernel versions 2.6 and earlier are not uncommon, it seems). If they turn their back on Linux, it has lost the leader position in that area, while not having gained anything on the desktop market.
KISS is not a means to an end. It means that *all* kind of end-users can adapt the product to *their* needs. And they can do so easily.

You can look at it from any perspective you want (besides faster boot times): It simply is a bad idea.
(And people who want to quickly boot something simply have a look at their already running smartphone - not to mention that they leave the PC running anyway. I don't see the big win with that).
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Randicus » 2015-01-22 08:40

I would like to express my gratitude to Deb-fan for injecting a great deal of humour into the thread. What a riot. :lol:
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