Where will you go after systemd?

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Where will you go after systemd?

BSD
12
16%
Linux without systemd
34
47%
Mac
2
3%
Windows
0
No votes
something totally different
1
1%
have not decided yet
24
33%
 
Total votes : 73

Block systemd with bug reports?

Postby bdtc1 » 2015-01-22 09:19

tomazzi wrote:I'm reading source code of each new version of systemd ... extremely low quality


What if you filed a bug report for each and every thing that you found wrong with the source code? Would enough of them be categorized as release-critical to delay the next Debian release indefinitely, perhaps even causing the dropping of systemd?

This sounds easier than trying to fork-and-fix.
bdtc1
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 2015-01-22 09:00

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-22 11:00

Lol, heya Randicus ... Hope you're doing well. Remember you from the last time I'd joined into this community. We had some laughs and some sorta-tears, good natured disagreement. However I must remind you, you have yet to take your vengence upon me. Dammit ... unless you've taken it and I don't know about it yet. *Putz on aluminumfoil-hat. :D

Blast from the past Randicus and Deb-fan's greatest hits.

See ... here.

and

This this sucker too. :)

Case Randicus ( or whoever else may care, I was really frustrated and pissed off w that new laptop when that nonsense went on. It all turned out fine though, shortly thereafter, had that sucker quad-booted w 3 good OS's (aka:Gnu/Linux) all running happily alongside Win7.)


Randicus ... remember you as I knowledgeable and fun person to hang out with fellow nixer, 155% feel your pain about the buntard hordes! Thought about doing a write up about the topic. Thinking about calling it the Unity Exodus. Thanks for yet more bs Canonical Inc ! When they came out w Unity, armies of buntard refugees left and where did they come I ASK YOU !?!?!? They came here, they spread into tons of other once great Debian or Debian-based Gnu/Nix communities AND friggin practically destroyed them ! Sighs ... anyway, since posting, had another thought.

Also summin else about this systemd and mass ship-jumping and Debian bashing it's obviously prompting. Yet again ... many people seem to be considering yet something else that totally flies in the face of common sense practices, long considered basic gospel in FOSS. For that matter ANY platform. Wth am I typing about ... read on.

Find it both amusing and as ever really disturbing at the same time. That people would look on a project w the standing and track record Debian has w suspicion ( and they are being tarded imo doing so.) At the same time, seem to be entertaining the prospect of doing something that by my standards, no sane or intelligent computer user would do.

It's probably not rule #1 but it's pretty dang close if again a person has any common sense. YOU DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INSTALL SOFTWARE FROM A SOURCE YOU DON'T KNOW-TRUST. If someone violates this simple rule, they should be prepared for problems to befall them AND they'd totally deserve it.

Devuan: If you visit that homepage, spend 5secs looking around an several alarm bells don't start screaming in the back of your mind. Then hey ... enjoy. Sheesh, looks like those peeps are from another planet and personally I wish they'd go back there and get offa mine ! :D

Devuan-like homepage contents. ( may as well be ... close enough.)

Hi weary travel, the twelek consortium greets you. We in the mesomorph are very concerned w Debian's behavior. If you'd like to contact one of the elder twelek's here Email@blahblahblah ( < More on that in a sec. :p )

We walk among you in peace, we need money to blahblahblah.


It was all I could do not to send one of the elder tweleks an email. "Take me to your leader." :D Friggin site looks like it was designed by a 12yr old dyslexic person. Folks are shunning Debian but some are actually considering joining the twelek dimension and installing stuff on their hardware from these people ?!?!?!? MADNESS !

Also on a side-note, didn't bother to check whether the email had any protections on it. Every spambot in the world is dying to join them in their quest. Guessing right around now the twelek elders inbox is getting flooded with offers for cheap generic viagra. :P

Some other similar stuff ( though biting my tongue, so the Deb mods hopefully don't delete this. Sighs ... ) Not @ all saying anything against people considering Bsd as an option. Hey they sound mature and reasonable to me, obviously have every right. This is not aimed at them, Bsd would probably be glad and lucky to have additional users in the community like these folks.

More on systemd itself though. Jmo NO the people ALLOWED to work on this are not slouches. Wouldn't be allowed if they were and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for them. How often does a coder get the chance to be on the original devel team for a replacement init system in Gnu/nix ? Seriously doubt they want to crap it up or to go down in history as the one's who stuck a knife in Gnu/Linux's back either.

Guessing many of them friggin LUV Linux, opensource and FOSS. As mentioned, the sourcecode appears to be freely licensed overall, forkable and a work in progress. Seemingly a step in the right direction. Not perfect ? Sure ... who's saying that ?

Imo ... the people involved are nothing like azzhatz or fektards. Until I really see something factual that indicates Debian or they are up to something no good. Then I'll continue to be grateful and appreciative of their work-efforts. No matter what, I'm not joining the twelek's. :)

Also to continue saying the same thing over and over ( and hearing even a buncha good nixers here saying, dang man, sthu already. ) There's also MANY other options to stay w Debian, Gnu/nix and side-step systemd until it proves itself to you-us. One way or the other.

Ok will shut it now. Sowwie, it's Randicus's fault for posting, making me post again. BLAME HIM ! ;)
PS, dang ... according to him, with all hiz l33t mad skills don't know why whathizname doesn't take 20mins from hiz busy schedule and code up the best init system the world has ever seen from scratch. After that he can go give Mr Torvald some lessons on kernel development. :D
Most powerful FREE tech-support tool on the planet * HERE. *
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2015-01-22 11:07

First time I used the "ignore" function ...
twoflowers
 

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby goulo » 2015-01-22 11:15

Deb-fan wrote:It's probably not rule #1 but it's pretty dang close if again a person has any common sense. YOU DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INSTALL SOFTWARE FROM A SOURCE YOU DON'T KNOW-TRUST.

That in a nutshell is why many people do not want to install systemd.

Many people do not trust the technical competence or the good motives of systemd's creator and pusher.
goulo
 
Posts: 47
Joined: 2012-01-19 09:52

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby bluecardigan » 2015-01-22 14:14

twoflowers wrote:First time I used the "ignore" function ...

It'd be easier to just scramble your password.
bluecardigan
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 2014-08-23 11:02

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-01-23 01:37

bdtc1 wrote:
tomazzi wrote:I'm reading source code of each new version of systemd ... extremely low quality


What if you filed a bug report for each and every thing that you found wrong with the source code? Would enough of them be categorized as release-critical to delay the next Debian release indefinitely, perhaps even causing the dropping of systemd?

This sounds easier than trying to fork-and-fix.


I've already explained it here:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119748&start=15#p565221

However, few things have changed since that time: I've decided to write a systemd-like init system from scratch, and one of key changes is that systemctl will have its own fallback iface for managing systemd-core service when dbus is dead. ( and this is one of key bugs in a systemd design )

Besides that, I want to implement exceptions (it's 21st century, right?) and untill now, results are promising.

I.e. I've decided to do something to be no longer dependand on a questionable decisions made by people, who I don't trust anymore...

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus
tomazzi
 
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby bdtc1 » 2015-01-23 20:02

You found tens of bugs, many of which are critical. Debian exists partly because people study the source and find problems and report them. I hope that you will file a whole boat-load of bug reports with Debian, especially whatever you consider to be the functionally dangerous ones. It would be truely fascinating to see what the Debian folks do with them: whether they continue to release with systemd as a default with known bugs, choose to delay the new stable release for an unknown amount of time to wait for fixes to all critical issues, or revert back to what has worked for so long.
bdtc1
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 2015-01-22 09:00

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-01-23 22:39

I don't know if You are programmer and how deep is Your knowledge about linux, but I'll try to show You something and explain few things:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119053&start=105#p561739
The bug in signal handling, which I've described in the linked post is just outrageous and exist at least from systemd v44.x

This single piece of code can be reported as 3 separete bugs:
1. Not checking return values can cause that systemd will be started with one or more signal handlers not being installed, and in such case it will not be able catch even it's own events (or crashes), so it can randomly fail for "no apparent reason".

2. This is design fault, because in professional code it is *forbidden* to handle SIGSEGV on the main stack - because if segfault is caused by stack overflow, then the sig handler will be invoked on already overflowed stack, causing just another segfault. This is an evidence that the authors should go back to school and learn basics of programming again.

3. Signal handlers are installed with SA_NODEFER what allows infinite nesting of signals (until stack gets overflowed), but no checking or protection against such situation exist. It seems, that the only reason why this flag is used is that it sounds "sexy" - NODEFER == "no delay".

Now tell me how to report this, as those are not bugs directly related to Debian, and are hard to reproduce.

Such bugs are like a land mine - You can walk 100 times over it without any problem, but someone else will blow up himself on a first occasion.

Regards.
Last edited by tomazzi on 2015-01-23 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
Odi profanum vulgus
tomazzi
 
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-01-23 23:02

tomazzi wrote:Now tell me how to report this

http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/li ... temd-devel
Black Lives Matter

Debian buster-backports ISO image: for new hardware support
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 13450
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby bdtc1 » 2015-01-23 23:50

tomazzi wrote:Now tell me how to report this, as those are not bugs directly related to Debian, and are hard to reproduce.


We get Debian security updates all the time, saying that someone found that package "xyx" failed to do "abc", which might cause "def", based on source-code review. It doesn't have to be experienced or reproduced. I think that what you are finding should be reported via the official Debian infrastructure as release-critical bugs. Bring it all to light. A list of 30-40 critical bug reports has to get someone's attention. This is stuff which can freeze servers and destroy data.
bdtc1
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 2015-01-22 09:00

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-01-24 02:39

You haven't convinced me ( I'm not going to drop my current work with forking of systemd ), but I think it may be interresting, so I've tried to follow Head_on_a_Stick advice (in the mean time), but even though I've got a confirmation that I was "successfully" registerd on systemd-devel mailing list, my email was rejected because I'm not registered ... funny, maybe it's a server problem, I'll try to check this tomorrow.

If this will still fail, then I'll try Debian BTS... (cause I don't want to have duplicate reports).

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus
tomazzi
 
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-24 06:06

One more, yeah I know everyone is thrilled I'm gonna post again. :P

Don't worry this isn't supposed to be a wall of text this time around. Wanted to clarify some stuff and add a bit about this systemd issue.


When said "I" was going to try systemd, I didn't mean some ancient outdated version of it. There's a reason tons of new releases for it and assoc packages have come out. Clearly means bugs have been found and squashed and/or improvements made to it.

So when said that, meant I'm going to install the latest. Atm looks like that means Debian experimental repo. Mention in a post a long way back in the thread it's definitely a concern if Debian stable users are to get stuck w an ancient outdated version of systemd.

Also mentioned I ( hope) and/or don't believe Debian would do that. For sure not for something like an init system replacement. I hope and believe they've thought about this and know what they're doing.

Overall I agree with any Debian stable or even testing user who doesn't want to be a crash test dummy for systemd. Jmo ... that's for sure not supposed to be the Debian way either. Whole reason software goes through the experimental>unstable>testing>stable release process. I still really can't/don't believe Debian HQ hasn't thought it out and knows what they're doing.

Meaning they will release patches and whatever else as needed to any software allowed into the stable repo. Definitely agree w the people saying they don't think it's appropriate to make it default in stable. Would advise people to listen to Head_on_Stick and take the option of keeping sysvinit given in the installer.

Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat. People do have the option of not having to test drive outdated version(s) of systemd.

Not to mention ( as mentioned) there's TONS of easy ways a person can nix ( pun intended) an outdated systemd and keep SysV. Seen a few here, posted a few here and a gazillion others are readily available. Not being insulting to the person above or people saying bug reports. Though have to ask/wonder what version of systemd they're talking about. You'd have to start w the latest one available.

Zero doubt that in many of the outdated systemd(s). Those bugs were long since found and crushed and progress and new features made. The whole server(s) this and systemd and server admins that, not even going there. Anyone who should even dare call themselves a server admin, already knows 14 million alternatives and work around to relying on a buggy version of systemd or any other questionable config or package or they should, shrugs.

Chit ! Turned into a wall of text anyway, sighs. Sue me I guess. ;)
Most powerful FREE tech-support tool on the planet * HERE. *
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby MALsPa » 2015-01-24 08:56

Deb-fan wrote:Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat.

I'm not one of those who's bailing on Debian because of systemd. I've done a few Jessie installations -- got Jessie on two computers right now -- but I didn't notice any option in the installer about which init system to install. Not sure how I could have missed something like that.
MALsPa
 
Posts: 666
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-01-24 10:02

Heya MALspa,

Hope you're doing well too. Think I remember you from I believe LM forum (same MALspa) ? Believe you were usually pretty dang knowledgeable and on the ball kinda person too. Nope ... you don't seem the kinda person who would miss something like that. Thought I'd seen Head_o_S mention an option in the installer. Maybe I'm wrong, if so I apologize to H_O_S and people here. Maybe it's recently been added or recently been taken away from installer ? I dunno in that case. Hopefully next time H_O_S stops in, he'll correct me or clarify ?

Either way, PLENTY of ways to do away w systemd. I refuse to bash Debian HQ, w/o having my facts straight. Started to go looking for people who are recognized as people taken seriously assoc with Debian and see what they have to say about what's happening. Their blogs etc etc. Found some, then decided to watch a movie instead. Will return to it later ... and would be grateful if someone else would link out to those kind of discussions on systemd. Rather than the FUD and regurgitated FUD so many people are spreading around.

At this point agree w and kinda wish Debian HQ would've just stuck w sysV or even better implemented one of the middle of the road options. ie: Sysv + Openrc or a buncha others. Could've likely taken a step up or sideways and kept more users happy. At least/until systemd proves itself. If only to avoid all this fighting and flame warring etc etc the issue is causing.

Also by now, am starting to lose my sense of humor about all the mess surrounding init system(s). Even if it doesn't bother or concern me personally. Still don't like seeing other good nixers upset if they don't have to be. Just some basic nosing around about which versions of what are in which repos.

Annoying and if Debian is letting an outdated version of systemd free on the userbase. It's unacceptable and *IF ... I'd like to know why and what they intend to do to make it right ? Still not going to bash Debian HQ, nor do I believe they've been taken over by Martian snails from the Dwebb nebula. :D When the movie's over, will go back to looking for what bigwigs from Debian have said about it.

* MALspa ... which version of systemd is on those Jessie installs you have ?

Sighs ... am on an expensive metered wireless highspeed connection atm. I don't want to spend A LOT of money to download and play with Debian stable ( or testing ... I don't use them). Am having to pay $10 a GB here ! You wanna talk about unfair dang it ! To make matters worse ( for me ) am right in the middle of multibooting another new laptop. This time around means hardcore GPT/UEFI and getting around a crapton of booby-traps and obstacles M$ came up with to keep me from installing a good OS, aka: Anything Gnu/Linux on my new hardware. Some old booby-traps, some new ones they crapped out upon the world. DAM U M$uks !!!!!

That's what brought me here, think I've almost got it sorted out. Came here looking for some info on something I want to figure out and that's when discovered this massive systemd issue raging. Had no idea it'd gotten this far out of hand. People from the twelek transfordium talking about forking Debian !?!?!? WTH ?!???!
Last edited by Deb-fan on 2015-01-24 10:31, edited 1 time in total.
Most powerful FREE tech-support tool on the planet * HERE. *
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby MALsPa » 2015-01-24 10:21

Deb-fan wrote:Think I remember you from I believe LM forum (same MALspa) ?

Yeah, one and the same.

Deb-fan wrote:Believe you were usually pretty dang knowledgeable and on the ball kinda person too.

I'm still a newbie...

Deb-fan wrote:* MALspa ... which version of systemd is on those Jessie installs you have ?

See: https://packages.debian.org/search?keyw ... ection=all
MALsPa
 
Posts: 666
Joined: 2007-12-07 19:20
Location: albuquerque

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

fashionable