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Where will you go after systemd?

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Where will you go after systemd?

BSD
12
16%
Linux without systemd
34
47%
Mac
2
3%
Windows
0
No votes
something totally different
1
1%
have not decided yet
24
33%
 
Total votes: 73

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Deb-fan
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#106 Post by Deb-fan »

Thanks MALsPa,

Deb-fan = lmintnewb and lmintnewb2, lol. Ya might or not remember that user from LM forum. Stuck around trying to help out longgggggg after I'd quit using LM. Definitely thanks for the info, it's not as outdated a version as I was thinking it might be. Isn't newest ... but isn't the 2010 version either THANK de gawds !

Now for the million dollar question. What do you think about it, how has it been acting on your install(s) and hardware ? Have you tried pulling in a newer version of systemd + assoc packages yet ? Certainly curious and am sure others here are too.

The noob thing, that's a good sign fellow nixer. Think if someone has the right attitude they'll forever consider themselves a gnu/nix newb. Cause someone could use it for 20yrs and still learn something new ( or 4,000 summin's new everyday. Right ? :) )

Have more than once thought even people like Linus Torvald find something new, that they didn't know about FOSS all the time and stop and think to themselves. Hmmmm that's frickin cool, gotta bookmark this and mess with it some more later. :P
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MALsPa
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#107 Post by MALsPa »

Deb-fan wrote:What do you think about it, how has it been acting on your install(s) and hardware ? Have you tried pulling in a newer version of systemd + assoc packages yet ?
I haven't noticed any problems so far. I haven't tried installing a newer version of systemd in Jessie. As far as what I think about it, systemd's fine with me. sysvinit was, too. I've got more important things going on in my life to be concerned about. My computer boots up, I'm happy.

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Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#108 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

MALsPa wrote:
Deb-fan wrote:Seen Head_O_S other places and he's always thoughtful and provides legit info from what I've ever seen. He says the option is in the installer, then I totally believe it. That would clearly mean, Debian HQ isn't forcing it down anyone's throat.
I'm not one of those who's bailing on Debian because of systemd. I've done a few Jessie installations -- got Jessie on two computers right now -- but I didn't notice any option in the installer about which init system to install. Not sure how I could have missed something like that.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=774939

It's not an option in the installer -- when GRUB is installed, it provides a menu entry for booting with SysVinit.

If you try re-configuring your GRUB menu with the latest version of GRUB, it should provide the menu entries:

Code: Select all

# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
@confuselling alerted everyone to this here:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=119910
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schnuller
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#109 Post by schnuller »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:[

If you try re-configuring your GRUB menu with the latest version of GRUB, it should provide the menu entries:

Code: Select all

# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
You can't use one of the Debian specific solutions to add sysv as an option?
Or are we already beyond all differences between different distributions, anything specific willl be removed to make it all the same ?

For what it's worth: I haven't used grub-mkconfig once in all the years. I didn't even know it exists, until a few seconds ago.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#110 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

schnuller wrote:You can't use one of the Debian specific solutions to add sysv as an option?
Or are we already beyond all differences between different distributions, anything specific willl be removed to make it all the same ?

For what it's worth: I haven't used grub-mkconfig once in all the years. I didn't even know it exists, until a few seconds ago.
Well yes you could also use `update-grub` -- I prefer to write my own grub.cfg these days; the scripts are a hack-job from hell...

It is possible to simply add a kernel parameter to boot with "init=/lib/sysvinit/init" instead -- this is what the GRUB update does ;)
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schnuller
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#111 Post by schnuller »

I also had dpkg-reconfigure in mind.
As far i remember update-grub never let me down, so i assume that is what i used all the time (might be i had to add FreeBSD or Hurd "manually" in /etc/grub.d).
Iow: I always use the most easy solution (Else there wouldn't have been a reason to use Debian over all those years).

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#112 Post by MALsPa »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:It's not an option in the installer -- when GRUB is installed, it provides a menu entry for booting with SysVinit.
Ah. I don't see the menu entry here, but this is grub-pc 2.02~beta2-19. I'm guessing it's there in grub-pc 2.02~beta2-20, which I see is in sid.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#113 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

MALsPa wrote:Ah. I don't see the menu entry here, but this is grub-pc 2.02~beta2-19. I'm guessing it's there in grub-pc 2.02~beta2-20, which I see is in sid.
I have the options after updating GRUB in jessie (version 2.02~beta2-19); do you have all the required SysV packages?

Code: Select all

# apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim
EDIT: You can test if your system will boot under SysVinit by appending the "init=/lib/sysvinit/init" parameter to your kernel command line after pressing "e" at the GRUB menu (<Ctrl>+x to boot after changing the line).
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#114 Post by MALsPa »

No -- I realized after posting that I'd probably have to actually install sysvinit first. :lol:

And then probably run update-grub, if installing sysvinit, etc., didn't cause update-grub to be run already.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#115 Post by Deb-fan »

Another thanks 2 Head_O_S for interesting, useful info. Thanks 2 MALsPa for that too. Seems Debian isn't throwing people into a shark tank. Also thanks to others for what you shared that didn't involve FUD and/or flaming other people in the community for no good reason. Well other than they had the impertinence to disagree with xyz persons FUD.

Edit: On second thought, not allowing someone to make me sink to their level. So got rid of a bunch of harsh contents ... Sighs. Rather just keep the sentiment below instead.
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tomazzi
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#116 Post by tomazzi »

bdtc1 wrote:
tomazzi wrote:Now tell me how to report this, as those are not bugs directly related to Debian, and are hard to reproduce.
We get Debian security updates all the time, saying that someone found that package "xyx" failed to do "abc", which might cause "def", based on source-code review. It doesn't have to be experienced or reproduced. I think that what you are finding should be reported via the official Debian infrastructure as release-critical bugs. Bring it all to light. A list of 30-40 critical bug reports has to get someone's attention. This is stuff which can freeze servers and destroy data.
OK, here's my report, containing only few (already mentioned) problems - I'm just curious what will happen...
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27386.html

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#117 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

tomazzi wrote:OK, here's my report, containing only few (already mentioned) problems - I'm just curious what will happen...
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27386.html

Regards.
Thank you very much for that -- hopefully this will improve systemd for the benefit of all users :)
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twoflowers

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#118 Post by twoflowers »

If you want systemd in debian to be reconsidered, it'd be a good idea to post all these bugs on the debian bugtracker and not on freedesktop.org.

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mardybear
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#119 Post by mardybear »

Just some Sunday systemd haha.
http://fossforce.com/2015/01/top-ten-th ... t-systemd/
Top Ten Things Linux Users Say About systemd
FOSS Force

Back about four or five years ago, when FOSS Force was just a young whippersnapper yelling to be heard, we found people first noticing us when we dreamed up a unique weekly feature we cleverly called the Top Ten List. It was an immediate success. Unfortunately, we can’t claim credit for originating the concept, as Michael J. Fox saw one of our lists on his DeLorean’s dashboard computer while on a foray into the twenty-first century, and told someone at NBC when back home in the eighties, who told David Letterman. We lost out when Letterman used it on his show and took credit for it — even though it was our idea years later in the first place. Thanks, David.

Until now, we thought the days of the Top Ten on FOSS Force were long gone. However, the systemd brouhaha has awakened the inner Top Ten List that has been sleeping within us for all these years. Today, for one day only, the Top Ten List returns for one last encore — or the last one until the next time something tickles us funny.

Ladies and gentlemen, from the home office in Omaha, Nebraska, here is this week’s Top Ten List — the top ten things Linux users say about systemd.

10. Shouldn’t that be capitalized?

9. It can’t be very good if all it got was a D.

8. I think that’s some kind of thing that Microsoft hangs on their servers.

7. We developers know what’s best.

6. systemd? Where’s my gun?

5. Will I still be able to watch Netflix?

4. Not nearly educated enough on the issue to make an informed assessment currently.

3. I don’t know nothing but I know what’s best and systemd ain’t it.

2. systemd? systemd? We don’t need no stinking systemd.

1. Things were going kinda good around here until you brought that systemd to the party.
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tomazzi
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#120 Post by tomazzi »

twoflowers wrote:If you want systemd in debian to be reconsidered, it'd be a good idea to post all these bugs on the debian bugtracker and not on freedesktop.org.
Actually, after Ian Jackson's GR have been rejected, I see no hope for Debian.
That GR was completely logical: <simplification> if Your calculator program have a hard dependancy on a kind of init system, then this is simply stupid (saying gently).
This alone leaves no hope for reconsidering the choice of default init system.

Debian (or perhaps only some of the developers) have worked hard to reject that GR, so for me, it means that Debian is lost. Not direclty due to adopting of systemd, but because political reasons were preferred over technical/logical ones in this case.

Therefore, I've decided to write my own init system, compatible with systemd, so I'll be able to use Debian repositories, but without having to use systemd. And soon nobody will be able to use Debian (but also most of other distros) without systemd.

Regards.

ps. in the mean time, I'v got 1 response for my report, regarding 1 of the reported bugs. I've responded to that email, but for some rason it wasn't added to a thread - so if someone is interrested, here it is:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27395.html
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Deb-fan
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#121 Post by Deb-fan »

Even though @ this point am questioning myself as to why, WHY, WHYYYYYYYY !??!! I'm still posting stuff here. Take a look at this

Linus Torvalds, a guy that came out w the Linux kernel and has been using it and FOSS longggggg before 99.9999999% of humanity had even known such a thing existed. He's using systemd on his main work-station AND his laptop. Clearly he must consider it the worst piece of software ever conceived of huh ?

He as is his usual wont, aka: No bullchit, say what you know and tell it like it is and if people don't like it. Obviously the guy really doesn't care. I approve and admire Linus not just from the fact that the guy is a fricken software mastermind but on a personal level too.

Mr Torvalds has issues w the head-dev behind systemd and the feeling is very much mutual. See that by way of a very clear example.

Jmo and comments on it, think the guy is too harsh on Linus Torvalds in that. Though also don't doubt what the guy has to say about people wanting to literally kill him for projects he's worked on. Well ... kinda ridiculous to me. I know there are nutjobs, fudders and tinfoil-azzhatists aplenty in Gnu/Nix communities far and wide.
Edit: Also pointless, though think the guy was having a bad dy and did many other people wrong too. ie: The gnu/nix communities as a whole. I can't really blame him though, can try to imagine what it's like to wake up, visit this forum, that blog, open an email acct and it's jammed packed with hate mail and even death threats from clueless fektards around the world.

Knowing that some of them actually mean it too. Try to imagine what it must be like having to worry about your safety and more importantly the safety of your family/friends. Must be real comforting knowing some epic out of touch azzhat could show up on your doorstep w a sawed off shotgun and satchel full of pipe bombs huh ? Yeah that's a wonderful way to win the guy and dev-team over to their opponents way of thinking. MEGA FACE-PALM !
Also though I know a heckuva lot less about Lennart Poettering, than Mr Torvalds. Seems obvious to me they are both extremely knowledgeable and gifted in the field of technology. Not really surprising they'd clash or isn't to me, shrugs. Both experts ... both w a preferred style of working on things. Torvalds gets bashed often enough too. By people that are totally clueless and doubtless unworthy to wash hiz dirty underwear.

Just saying a ship has ONE captain for a reason. If it's dragging barges full of fektards and azzhats screaming about their precious freedoms, choices, rights and lofty principles and raging about how unfair it is that they don't get a turn to steer da boat. Well ... that's probably cuz the craft would quickly end up on the rocks or at best spinning aimlessly in circles. :P

Sighs ... also more specifically on the topic of systemd vs other candidates. See this link

See that long lists of yes's vs the others and the no after no after no's. Looks to me like Poettering and the devel-team, he's not the only person involved are doing some dang good things and must have a tad bit of knowledge and skills in turning so many no's into yes's.

Some folks ( who probably know even less than myself and that's with me readily admitting am not a systemd or init guru) are likely saying, those yes's aren't good dude, errrr even though I don't even know what they mean ! That's because systemd is trying to take over the world and because it was secretly developed in a lab sponsored by Satan himself !

Or fallback to FUD and rehashed FUD, it's monolithic/non-modular dang it, it's anti-opensource goss darn it, it's the software anti-christ and I'm going to Bsd ! In some ways yep, some not at all. Imo some real steps in a positive direction, shrugs. Think Debian made the right choice too, not that I'm qualified to even question people in their league, I'm an end-user here.

Yeah but what about journald and binary this n that !?!?! Well ... run syslog-ng alongside the sucker if you know what it is or actually have any need to (edit: or mask, limit it or or or etc). If folks spent 1/1millionth of their time actually setting aside ridiculous end of the world FUD and learnt something about using sytemd, they'd have a much happier life. Not to mention any admin worth the label long since has and therefore was/is light-years ahead of all the tinfoilists, whiners, criers etc etc.

Anyway, don't know if this compiles w Debian forum rules or not but wanted to share one last tidbit of info some folks may find interesting. I'm selling hats made out of the far superior aluminumfoil at extremely affordable pricing. PM me if you'd like 2 buy, bulk rate discounts and satisfaction guaranteed ! Also I PROMISE, no more walls of text from me in this thread, no need to put me on ignore, sheesh. :D
Also yes, I'm a Debian and FOSS fanboi, shoot me I guess, shrugs. I must be nutz being crazy about all this awesome software just begging to be used ! Yeah I'm a real nutjob. *Face, meet palm* :)
Last edited by Deb-fan on 2015-01-26 15:14, edited 2 times in total.
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schnuller
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#122 Post by schnuller »

tomazzi wrote:
twoflowers wrote:If you want systemd in debian to be reconsidered, it'd be a good idea to post all these bugs on the debian bugtracker and not on freedesktop.org.
Actually, after Ian Jackson's GR have been rejected, I see no hope for Debian.
That GR was completely logical: <simplification> if Your calculator program have a hard dependancy on a kind of init system, then this is simply stupid (saying gently).
This alone leaves no hope for reconsidering the choice of default init system.

Debian (or perhaps only some of the developers) have worked hard to reject that GR, so for me, it means that Debian is lost. Not direclty due to adopting of systemd, but because political reasons were preferred over technical/logical ones in this case.

Therefore, I've decided to write my own init system, compatible with systemd, so I'll be able to use Debian repositories, but without having to use systemd. And soon nobody will be able to use Debian (but also most of other distros) without systemd.

Regards.

ps. in the mean time, I'v got 1 response for my report, regarding 1 of the reported bugs. I've responded to that email, but for some rason it wasn't added to a thread - so if someone is interrested, here it is:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s ... 27395.html
1) I want to bump this for obvious reasons
2) I agree with the conclusion there ain't much point in Debian anymore
3) I read the bug-report. It ain't of much use for a non-programmer, but interesting anyway.

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kolker
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#123 Post by kolker »

Probably gentoo or lfs is the best long term option in Linux considering how you create the system. Though those Linux systems epidemise choice you have to do much yourself and you could probably still use things that may use systemd natively if you use the right build switches.

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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#124 Post by Deb-fan »

Dang it ! Will try to keep it brief and let the linkage, speak for itself.

1. The systemd-shim is apparently maintained by Debian itself. See that

So was both right + wrong on the matter, thus where learning things tends to be productive eh. :) Just goes to show, in addition to a gazillion other choices/freedoms people still retain over using systemd, Debian is once again moving mountains and bending over backwards to satisfy and take care of the Debian userbase. As ever, demonstrating amazing tech skills, consideration and competence. Yep ... my ( non-metalic-foil)hat is once again off to these awesome people.

2. Some thoughts from a guy who actually knows of which he speaks (unlike so many conspiracy nutters), a Siduction maintainer see that

Just to reinterate the painfully obvious on this topic, yet again and again and again. Plenty of people infinitely better qualified than vocal ignorant nutjobs are concerned with systemd vs alternate init, if only to avoid needless hostility and other socio-type, non-technical problems the issue is presenting. Also for every frothing @ the mouth FUD infected anti-systemd troll, seen TONS ( including Linus Tovalds himself) of people happy with systemd and/or people who'd rather employ one of the MANY ( some quite easy) alternatives, work-arounds-etc to taking control of "their" OS platform. Compared to whiners and azzhatz unwilling to even utilize one of the many (also seemingly very easy) alternatives the people behind Debian have gone out of their way to provide.

Sheesh talk about biting the hand, that makes someone gourmet food and feeds em on a silver-spoon. These azzhatz don't just bite that hand, they try to kick Debian in the nutz for all it's awesome efforts. Imo of which, these people are grossly unworthy.

Ha ! Right on the borderline of a wall of text ! Though at this point promise no posts of any length 2 this FF&FF= (FUD FANATICS & FEKTARD FESTIVAL.) That is not directed @ everyone, people I'm talking about know who they are, or should, shrugs.

PS, on review, nope it's a wall of friggin text afterall, I lied ... sue me. :)
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mean_dean
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

#125 Post by mean_dean »

Deb-fan wrote: 1. The systemd-shim is apparently maintained by Debian itself.
It is packaged and maintained by debian devels the same as any package in Debian.

But the source comes from the site of Ryan Lortie who is with the Gnome project. http://people.gnome.org/~desrt/

The copyright file lists the following:
Files: *
Copyright: Copyright: 2010 Lennart Poettering
Copyright: 2011 Lennart Poettering
Copyright: 2011 Bastien Nocera <hadess@hadess.net> / 2007 David Zeuthen <david@fubar.dk> / 2013 Canonical Limited
Copyright: 2013 Canonical Limited
License: GPL-2+

Files: debian/*
Copyright: 2013 Sebastien Bacher <seb128@ubuntu.com>
License: GPL-2+

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