Where will you go after systemd?

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Where will you go after systemd?

BSD
12
16%
Linux without systemd
34
47%
Mac
2
3%
Windows
0
No votes
something totally different
1
1%
have not decided yet
24
33%
 
Total votes : 73

Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-02-09 08:03

bdtc1 wrote:He has already posted exact independent proof in the form of excerpts from the original source code, including comments from the authors where they themselves admit that there are problems which they are not addressing at that time. Non-programmers might not understand, but that doesn't change the validity of the proof. I believe that the full list should be posted here, or better yet in the bug-tracking system.

After posting on the systemd mailing list and recieving a reply from the developers regarding the points he raised:
tomazzi wrote:I've learned a lot, sorry to waste Your time.

@schnuller -- thank you, I appreciate your support.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby bdtc1 » 2015-02-09 12:27

In case this was overlooked:

tomazzi wrote:
bdtc1 wrote:
<From the mailing list:>To summarise: there are no bugs in core/main.c:
I've learned a lot, sorry to waste Your time.


Just to be clear, is the above sarcasm? Because it could be interpreted as saying that you finally agree and see their point.


Of course this is sarcasm.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby twoflowers » 2015-02-09 13:23

sarcasm detectors are out of order nowadays
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby dasein » 2015-02-09 16:36

Argument from authority is not only no better than ad hominem, it's no different.

(Just sayin')
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby dasein » 2015-02-09 16:41

tomazzi wrote:There's also no point to post portions of broken systemd code here, cause when looking at the replies, it seems obvious that it's *unlikely* to find someone who could understand it...

Sadly true, which is just one of the many reasons why this "debate" needs to just farqing die already.

(@tomazzi: I know that you neither need nor want my support in this particular point, but you have it anyway.)
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-02-09 23:03

dasein wrote:
tomazzi wrote:There's also no point to post portions of broken systemd code here, cause when looking at the replies, it seems obvious that it's *unlikely* to find someone who could understand it...

Sadly true, which is just one of the many reasons why this "debate" needs to just farqing die already.

I agree.
One question though: Is in your opinion t anything worth to talk about ? Or is all we can say for the next 500 years that nothing is worth talking about?
You could make a start ....
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-02-10 00:09

Declarations:
I've said it already, that I'm writting my *own* systemd version - nobody is forced to use it. It's just my own project made because of my selfish reasons. Again: I'm writting MY OWN version of systemd, because I'm not happy with what I can see in the official version. That's all.

It's a hard work - I'll really would like to use mainstream version - but unfortunatelly mainstream version is broken to the roots - so I HAVE to fork it for myself - AND I don't give a shit if anyone follows...

Did I made myself clear?

Anyway, I'm ****** missing a man who would catch the truth about the situation:
And the situation is:
RedHat, through systemd, is trying to bypass the whole open-source world - how? it's simple - systemd is already experimeting with direct function calls to kernel (SCI).
One could tell that they are searching for lower delays in system calls. But the truth is: they are trying to bypass glibc - to create closed-source version of systemd. And we are all just stupid test dummies, until we realise that there's way out.

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-02-10 01:54

I thought the question was what software you already did write, not what software you are planning to write.

You can stop searching for that man: There are people who see it like that.
And that is exactly why i said in another thread that not all problems related to systemd relate to the quality of it's code (You called it nonsense, btw).
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-02-10 21:35

schnuller wrote:I thought the question was what software you already did write, not what software you are planning to write.

And I thought that arguments, especially technical arguments are speaking for themselves - it's You who have a problem here, so You are trying to qestion my competence, because You can't understand the arguments nor the portions of code which I've posted here. So I could ask : are You just trolling here?, but I'm not going to say this ;) (well, I've said this, sorry)

Anyway, since I don't have google+ account nor Facepalm account, I can't give You a link to my profile, and for sure I will not show You my CV (You wouldn't understand most of it, cause there are mostly technical terms).
However, I may tell You that I'm working embedded systems/software in the area of factory automation (servo controllers, PLCs, etc).
In case if by "embedded system" You can only imagine toys like RaspberryPi, (what is rather common picture among laics), then I'll surprise You: "a toy" like S7-319F PLC is build on 3 independant CPUs: TriCore, PMC E9 and ERTEC400 (dedicated ethernet controller with integrated ARM core for handling Profibus and ProfiNet stacks).

You won't find this on Google, but You may try...

Oh, and I wrote a reply to a quiz here:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=106902&p=511243&hilit=quiz#p510648

schnuller wrote:You can stop searching for that man: There are people who see it like that.
And that is exactly why i said in another thread that not all problems related to systemd relate to the quality of it's code (You called it nonsense, btw).

I don't think so - most of negative opinions I've seen were lacking techical background, so they could be easily questioned as being not objective.

................

Normally this should be end of this post, but I do uderstand that You believe in some magic or some super powers owned by developers who are working for big-name companies. Well I'm going to show You something:

Some time ago, when I was writting wxEDID (a tool for modyfying EDID data under GNU/Linux systems) I've discovered a really funny thing:
Video Electronics Standards Association (a big name, isn't it) have failed to understand the structure of Manufacturer_ID. In both official documents and on a Wiki page, this 2-byte structure is presented as a obfuscated set of bits. Even Linux kernel has wrong implementation of this struct (written by INTEL and REDHAT):
line 1316:
http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/gpu/drm/drm_edid.c
Wiki: (bytes 8-9)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data

What is really funny here, is that this struct is encoded as Big-endian, while the rest of EDID struct is encoded as Little-endian.

Nobody for those years which have past from the day 0, when the standard was settled have noticed this.

And the struct looks like follows:
Code: Select all
struct {
    uint letter3     :5;
    uint letter2     :5;
    uint letter1     :5;
    uint reserved :1;
} mfc_id_t;

So, instead of shifting, or-ing and mixing bits, it's just sufficient to just swap 2 bytes of manufacturer id and read those 3 letters directly.

How could this happen? Big Name companies are hiring geniuses right?
Who would be that stupid to mix data fields with different endiannes in one structure? In a specification for a standard?

This is how it's possible:
In big companies NOBODY GIVES A SHIT - their employees just can't wait for a launch time.

(btw, this field was forced by ... gues who? Microshit.)

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-02-10 21:56

@tomazzi -- thank you for clarifying that.

I see now that you are indeed very knowledgeable and are certainly in a position to critically analyse the code base.

I apologise sincerely and profusely if I have caused you any offence: this was not my intention.

As I stated previously it is just that I think it is important to establish the credibility of posters on this open forum.

Obviously, I have no credibility at all but you knew that already :D
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-02-10 22:43

tomazzi wrote:
schnuller wrote:I thought the question was what software you already did write, not what software you are planning to write.

And I thought that arguments, especially technical arguments are speaking for themselves - it's You who have a problem here, so You are trying to qestion my competence, because You can't understand the arguments nor the portions of code which I've posted here. So I could ask : are You just trolling here?, but I'm not going to say this ;) (well, I've said this, sorry)

Anyway, since I don't have google+ account nor Facepalm account, I can't give You a link to my profile, and for sure I will not show You my CV (You wouldn't understand most of it, cause there are mostly technical terms).
However, I may tell You that I'm working embedded systems/software in the area of factory automation (servo controllers, PLCs, etc).
In case if by "embedded system" You can only imagine toys like RaspberryPi, (what is rather common picture among laics), then I'll surprise You: "a toy" like S7-319F PLC is build on 3 independant CPUs: TriCore, PMC E9 and ERTEC400 (dedicated ethernet controller with integrated ARM core for handling Profibus and ProfiNet stacks).

Not sure why you consider a simple question as offence or as trolling. And the question was asked humble and friendly enough. It statet from the very beginning that it *might* clarify things.
What do google+ or facebook have to do with software development? github or similar would be more close to it.



Normally this should be end of this post, but I do uderstand that You believe in some magic or some super powers owned by developers who are working for big-name companies. Well I'm going to show You something:

I didn't speak of companies at all. You got a quote where it may have sounded as if i was speaking of companies or a CV?

It is very exhausting to speak to you, as you seem to misunderstand everything. Then quickly rant bout others having no technical backround or knowledge.
I wonder how it may be that none of the thousands of Debian Developers and Maintainers has a clue of C programming.
And if the code of systemd would be as close to perfect as it could be, i still wouldn't use it, as i dislike it's general approach.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby tomazzi » 2015-02-11 23:56

Hmm, maybe I've becomed "hypersensitive", after reading stupid comments from that jerk who's hiding under the nick "Deb-fan"...

I didn't said that others have no technical knowledge - that funny example of EDID is just showing that Big Name doesn't necessarily make anyone an oracle. Everyone makes mistakes, there are no exceptions. The only difference is in how are You going to deal with the mistakes You've made.
And this is exactly the problem with systemd: I'm entirely sure that the devs know perfectly what is broken in the design of this project, but they have decided to silently ignore this (that's probably because it would need some important changes, some work, and many tests - or because they just have some other targets)

Anyway, it showed up, that in the end it's me who's stupid:
Because non-technical arguments are widely ignored, I've tried to show technical side of the problem. That in turn showed up to be stupid, because I was accused of being non-competent to raise such arguments - and what is funny, by people who knows shit about software.

Maybe You will understand me, maybe not - anyway, I'll just continue to do my work, and I'll make the results available for review/download.

Regards.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby schnuller » 2015-02-12 03:11

I think i do understand you. I also think i did understand you from the beginning (which is way before this thread).
I do apppreciate your aproach from a code-related point of view. Seriously.
But:
1)I and many others don't understand it (while i learned a bit of C, what you speak of is way above me).
2) I doubted and still doubt that there are only technical arguments against systemd (takeover by RedHat and "do-one-thing-do-it-well" are still technical arguments in my world, but not as technical as code-related arguments).

Seriously: No offense from my side. I speak the way i speak, and it is weird (no need to be hypersensitive to misunderstand it ... :-) ). But my intention was never to disagree with your general approach. I only tried to show that other approaches are kinda valid too.

But yes, the whole systemd "discussion" (lol) is like a circus (Deb-fan, etc). Paranoia mixed with hysterie, never-ending rants, but most of all: wrong info.

Long story short: Good luck and, as far it's me, everything is fine.
At the end of the day systemd is there, in Debian, and i will have to live with it, i will have to make my choices. No matter what is the outcome of discussions.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby debianized » 2015-02-13 05:00

ILC77 wrote:I think that I am going to go with Gentoo.


I wish you luck. Gentoo was great in the early days. It's an absolute abortion now. It has become this huge bureaucracy and it shows. Back in early 2009, Gentoo stable packages were even older than Debian stable, which is why I switched to Debian then.

Speaking of Gentoo, I remember the high drama which occurred on the Gentoo forums back when systemd was first discussed. People lost their damn minds. Talk about spreading FUD, except it was systemd FUD. I'm a bit surprised to see the same FUD spread on these forums now. I had always assumed the forum members here were beyond it. I guessed wrong apparently.

I happily run Parabola and KaOS here, both with systemd. I've yet to experience so much as a hiccup on either system.
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Re: Where will you go after systemd?

Postby Deb-fan » 2015-02-14 12:33

Yeah ... I'm hiding great tomazzi :D Sheesh, would pay $ to have 20mins to talk w your uber l33t all knowingness in real life dude and face 2 face. You're clearly a clueless tard man and one of the most annoying kinds. One who thinks they're a genius. Not that your type of tard is uncommon by any means, all too common unfortunately. Not like you're/they're worth interacting w on or offline.

Usually don't bother addressing those kinds of people. Posted plenty of info through-out the thread from people w actual technical knowledge and credibility when discussing technical subjects, which TGT = the great tomazzi clearly has nothing of the sort. Not technical qualification not credibility. Ooooo, I will report my uberl33t findings, ummmm, could somebody tell me how to submit a bug report ? Lmao .. yeah right. :P

Tards, leading tards, leading the blind situation. Something like gnu/Linux is not so much a philosophical subject as it is a technical one. One of technologies virtues, if you have the knowledge/skill etc. a person can get down to the facts of the matter. It works, it doesn't ... there's something better or something misconfigged and can be easily corrected.

Philosophical considerations imo are clearly secondary concerns. Also clearly doesn't make sense to have a technical discussion on technical matters, with peeps who just type out tarded half baked philosophical nonsense and FUD based arguments. That's how I'm seeing this matter. However that's just me. Sheesh if the sky is falling keep wondering why all these folks whining aren't settling into Bsd and patting themselves on the back for their good judgement and having dodged an evil bullet they consider systemd to be. :D

When a tree falls in the forrest and nobody's around to hear it, does it make a sound ? More importantly did systemd take a chainsaw to it and kill da po widdle tree ???! DAM U SYSTEMD. :)

Pointless elaboration, personally am going to post a big THANK YOU, to Debian all the people involved w it and to all those responsible for all the kickbutt n awesome opensource. They've done all this for me-us, even despite us and I am grateful to them for all their efforts.

As an end-user for the most part, have zero right to criticize such awesome people. Fortunately they do have both the technical skills+knowledge and continue to be motivated by noble philosophical beliefs and commendable ideals and principles, to which they've stayed true for DECADES.

THANK YOU DEBIAN, am sure they know not everyone using this kickbutt OS are unappreciative tarded azzhats.
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