Debian User Forums

If i previously posted on this massive thread, forgive me. My preferences probably changed anyway. Spent way too much trialing numerous other distributions and BSDs. In the end:

- Keep on with Debian Wheezy and hope for long term support. Debian probably maintains the largest software repository on this planet and i have yet to come across another non-Debian distribution that readily provides everything i need with a simple apt-get equivalent. Although it may seem like procrastinating, this should buy lots of time for new non-systemd developments.

- Upgrade to Jessie when Wheezy reaches end of life, staying with traditional init. By this time, Jessie should be extremely stable. Hopefully a minimal Jessie will allow me to use all the software i require without the need for systemd.

- Last option is presently a toss-up between a musl-based system (eg Tiny Core) or FreeBSD. Both are good, but i still prefer Debian. Based on limited experience, i can only say that i find Linux more interesting than the BSDs.

Just to put some oil on the fire: KDE is silently moving to systemd ...
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/02/20/101235

Have been using systemd on my Sid desktop for about a year now. Learned how to make my own units/services (pretty neat) and the basic usage of systemctl, didn't have to dig much deeper. As of yet, haven't noticed my PC becoming noticeably more evil than the neighbouring Slackware laptop (with BSD-init).

Mean while over at Debian fork HQ

http://i.imgur.com/1PTI6L5.png

Code: Select all

yea!!! so we completely get rid of systemd now from installer to login

oswaldkelso wrote:http://i.imgur.com/1PTI6L5.png

ps -afe | grep [l]ogin
would get rid of the grep command itself.

oswaldkelso wrote:Mean while over at Debian fork HQ

http://i.imgur.com/1PTI6L5.png

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yea!!! so we completely get rid of systemd now from installer to login

Here's Dima's post which is the source of that image.

This is good news for anyone wanting real control over one's own machine without patronizing daemons like systemd & Co.

I've decided to write a more detailed post, even though I realize I belong to a minority on this forum, as well as that I've been here for mere few days.

If I WERE to switch to something that doesn't use systemd, I'd go Slackware. I am, in fact, using Slackware on my secondary computer and it is my old love, as I was using it even before I first tried Debian (Squeeze). It still uses very old-school BSD-init startup files layout, which I'm fully comfortable with (more so, than with sysvinit).

However, I don't plan to stop using Debian over systemd. And I AM usually resistant to drastic changes in the way things work. For example, I stayed on GNOME2 long after it was deprecated (until I discovered MATE, which seems to do a nice job of being GNOME2), and I still avoid everything with GNOME Shell like forest fire. But in my view, systemd brings nothing but improvements over sysvinit scripts (of which I never was a big fan) - from hugely reduced boot time to much easier and more cogent way to monitor the processes that have started/failed to start during the boot, to more unified and versatile concept of units that allows you to handle startup dependencies in a sane and non-overcomplicated manner. And it even has sysvinit compatibility!

Yes, I'm not big on conspiracy theories. If new thing makes my life harder (like GNOME3 did), I will stay away from it. If it makes my life easier (as both pulseaudio and systemd did) - I embrace it. So far, over a year with systemd on Sid, and I'm fully content. My backup plan is right here in the same room, and if something goes askew, I wouldn't mind running Slackware on both of my machines

Don't believe I've posted here yet.

Currently, I'm running with systemd on my desktop using Jessie, but on my Chromebook I use Wheezy (but via crouton- So I guess most correctly I'm using upstart).

I don't really know for sure how I feel about it yet. From a personal perspective its caused me no problems, and has actually made some things easier. But more an ideological standpoint I really, really don't like it. I used to use FreeBSD for a bit and every new linuxism just makes thing waaaayyy harder on that side of the fence. Unix philosophy is supposed to value portability, and that's the time, systemd really doesn't and for some reason Gnome 3 and KDE5 both want to rely on it. Why?? We never had that kind of OS dependancy on a DE before. We're supposed to be modular, and Gnome 3 is turning it into a whole stack kind of thing by using systemd. Why these projects can't/won't remain init agnositic is beyond me. Why limit your potential user base? Systemd is the enabler for this.

Than there's Poettering himself, a total ass who open attacks the Linux community for not adopting his 'advances' quickly enough, going as far to blame Torvalds for the community's 'state'.

But that said, I like my set up, I really don't want to mess with it, so we'll see. Probably one of these days I'll make a proper back up not just of my files but of the OS as well and try and make Jessie stop using systemd- but that'll also mean giving up Gnome 3

JLloyd13 wrote:
I don't really know for sure how I feel about it yet. From a personal perspective its caused me no problems, and has actually made some things easier. But more an ideological standpoint I really, really don't like it. I used to use FreeBSD for a bit and every new linuxism just makes thing waaaayyy harder on that side of the fence. Unix philosophy is supposed to value portability, and that's the time, systemd really doesn't and for some reason Gnome 3 and KDE5 both want to rely on it. Why?? We never had that kind of OS dependancy on a DE before. We're supposed to be modular, and Gnome 3 is turning it into a whole stack kind of thing by using systemd. Why these projects can't/won't remain init agnositic is beyond me. Why limit your potential user base? Systemd is the enabler for this.

I will come out in the open - I didn't know how to feel about systemd, but having closely followed the debate on Debian init system, I (perhaps, strangely so) involuntarily became more sympathetic to it's cause. I understand, what Poettering is trying to do - he's trying to make Linux into an actual operating system, much like BSD is, as opposed to a zoo of divergent distros, where Linux is basicly only a common core, and I see it as a just cause, though not without some controversy. GNOME and KDE are in on this - as major DEs, they are both interested in unification, not having to deal with, for example, both consolekit and logind will make their life easier. I guess in the end, that's just how things are to be. I do see merit in standartization - look at game developers. They don't say their games "work on Linux" right now, they don't know what your Linux may actually be. They have to say "we support Ubuntu", at least they're quite sure what exactly Ubuntu is.

I've seen so much of vile, personal hatred directed on Poeterring (including death wishes), so much prejudice that is too often obviously uneducated (I'm by no means a guru, but some things are obviously bogus even to me), How in the world systemd deprives someone of control over his own system? Why are repeating people some words someone said that make no sense? For God's sake, Linus is ok with systemd (yes, his quote is often twisted by systemd-haters, but he really said that "he has no big issues with it, even though some design decisions such as binary logs are insane, but those are details, not something huge" (quoting from memory).

JLloyd13 wrote:try and make Jessie stop using systemd

You mean select the "SysVinit" option from the GRUB menu?

You're right though, GNOME 3.14 (& GDM) doesn't start if you do that

Moonshine wrote:

JLloyd13 wrote:
I don't really know for sure how I feel about it yet. From a personal perspective its caused me no problems, and has actually made some things easier. But more an ideological standpoint I really, really don't like it. I used to use FreeBSD for a bit and every new linuxism just makes thing waaaayyy harder on that side of the fence. Unix philosophy is supposed to value portability, and that's the time, systemd really doesn't and for some reason Gnome 3 and KDE5 both want to rely on it. Why?? We never had that kind of OS dependancy on a DE before. We're supposed to be modular, and Gnome 3 is turning it into a whole stack kind of thing by using systemd. Why these projects can't/won't remain init agnositic is beyond me. Why limit your potential user base? Systemd is the enabler for this.

I will come out in the open - I didn't know how to feel about systemd, but having closely followed the debate on Debian init system, I (perhaps, strangely so) involuntarily became more sympathetic to it's cause. I understand, what Poettering is trying to do - he's trying to make Linux into an actual operating system, much like BSD is, as opposed to a zoo of divergent distros, where Linux is basicly only a common core, and I see it as a just cause, though not without some controversy. GNOME and KDE are in on this - as major DEs, they are both interested in unification, not having to deal with, for example, both consolekit and logind will make their life easier. I guess in the end, that's just how things are to be. I do see merit in standartization - look at game developers. They don't say their games "work on Linux" right now, they don't know what your Linux may actually be. They have to say "we support Ubuntu", at least they're quite sure what exactly Ubuntu is.

I've seen so much of vile, personal hatred directed on Poeterring (including death wishes), so much prejudice that is too often obviously uneducated (I'm by no means a guru, but some things are obviously bogus even to me), How in the world systemd deprives someone of control over his own system? Why are repeating people some words someone said that make no sense? For God's sake, Linus is ok with systemd (yes, his quote is often twisted by systemd-haters, but he really said that "he has no big issues with it, even though some design decisions such as binary logs are insane, but those are details, not something huge" (quoting from memory).

but BSD is still portable. Very much so. It follows traditional Unix values. It values portability. If things are designed to work in small, independent programs that are portable- aka Unix vales- standardization of that level is not necessary. OpenBSD is an 'operating system' as you put it, but everyone can use OpenSSH. Heck, ignore Unix- GNU and open source software is all about total control over your software. I'm not saying systemd is evil- I've said I'm not sure how I feel about- but there's no doubt in my mind we don't need this level of Linuxism in software that we now find in Gnome 3 thanks to Poettering and the Gnome team trying to turn this into an 'operating system'. IMO We don't need a standard Linux operating system, ever. In fact, that almost defeats the point.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

JLloyd13 wrote:try and make Jessie stop using systemd

You mean select the "SysVinit" option from the GRUB menu?

You're right though, GNOME 3.14 (& GDM) doesn't start if you do that

I was not aware it was that easy. Thank you.

EDIT---

If its that easy why are people still forking Debian over it?

JLloyd13 wrote:If its that easy why are people still forking Debian over it?

The systemd-haters want to rid their system of all traces of it -- @golinux believes systemd is a trojan of some sort and will take over your computer sooner or later...

Resistance is futile!

JLloyd13 wrote:If its that easy why are people still forking Debian over it?

Because it's about more than init. It is the entanglement of depends that is the glue that binds systemd to places where is unnecessary except to tie it to the systemd monolith.