Has modern Linux lost its way?

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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby mor » 2015-02-25 11:32

Yes our nadir/jalu last aka schnuller is very good at getting on peoples' nerves, he sometimes (yes, not always) even does it on purpose.
But you are failing to read between the lines and you are now stuck looking at the finger that points to the moon.

Nadir is trying to give voice, admittedly in a kinda fucked up way, to a series of preoccupations that go far beyond the putative elitism often associated with old school *nixers and debianists.
We may not like the way he is telling it and we may disagree on the fact it is a real issue, but it is undeniable that the level of questions and answers you read on the various channels of our "linux" world is on a free fall.
He's not talking "in the last months", not even the last few years and it certainly isn't because of systemd (although it is easily the proverbial last straw).

The decline happened slowly but steadily in the last decade at least, and was inevitable with the increased use of the various linux based systems.
Some (well, quite a few good ones actually) are genuinely concerned that what they lived as a great passion about something, is gonna get lost in a race to clock beans as a measure of greatness.

Many have lost interest in sharing with us what they know exactly because of this. Not all those who know stuff have gone away, but we're definitely shorthanded, and it is not by covering the umpteenth "how to install the real firefox" or "I am stuck with a black screen after upgrade" threads that this is still a place of learning.
Nadir is simply trying to call the community up on the fact that we're no longer learning stuff, we're mostly just patting each others' backs for being users of one distro.

Could he have been less assholish about it?
Of course, but he's who he is and even in the face of how he acts, to put him in the troll category is just shortsighted.

Now, can you go beyond that?

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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby JLloyd13 » 2015-02-25 13:46

mor wrote:Nadir is trying to give voice, admittedly in a kinda fucked up way, to a series of preoccupations that go far beyond the putative elitism often associated with old school *nixers and debianists.
We may not like the way he is telling it and we may disagree on the fact it is a real issue, but it is undeniable that the level of questions and answers you read on the various channels of our "linux" world is on a free fall.
He's not talking "in the last months", not even the last few years and it certainly isn't because of systemd (although it is easily the proverbial last straw).

The decline happened slowly but steadily in the last decade at least, and was inevitable with the increased use of the various linux based systems.
Some (well, quite a few good ones actually) are genuinely concerned that what they lived as a great passion about something, is gonna get lost in a race to clock beans as a measure of greatness.


Well, ignoring systemd for a second- and your odd acceptance of a user who has multiple accounts- I'm going to propose a theory. I think the reason why there are more dumb questions here are because there are more new users here, and that's not a bad thing. Today's new users are tomorrows contributors. Maybe the old timers just can't remember being new- I do, I got into Linux about 4 years ago, and yeah, I asked some pretty stupid questions. It happens. New users sometimes would rather ask their question than consult google. Is that right? No. But it's hardly criminal. The amount of learning I've done in 4 years is amazing- these new users will improve, if we don't scare them away. The idea that their learning nothing is false, just help them politely and point them towards the wiki and man pages, they'll learn. I did. More and more new users are coming into Linux- But we shouldn't feel threatened by it. I'm not someone who cares about all the market share crap- I'm happy with it as a niche, doesn't mean we need to be jerks to new users.

Many have lost interest in sharing with us what they know exactly because of this. Not all those who know stuff have gone away, but we're definitely shorthanded, and it is not by covering the umpteenth "how to install the real firefox" or "I am stuck with a black screen after upgrade" threads that this is still a place of learning.
Nadir is simply trying to call the community up on the fact that we're no longer learning stuff, we're mostly just patting each others' backs for being users of one distro.

Could he have been less assholish about it?
Of course, but he's who he is and even in the face of how he acts, to put him in the troll category is just shortsighted.

Now, can you go beyond that?

Bye


A good response is saying "Iceweasel is the same thing, also next time use google/wiki/man pages." what schnuller does is not that. He doesn't help. He doesn't direct them towards documentation. He says things like this:
The best idea is to go back to Windows. It has wrecked your brain and you will not be able to use other operating systems anymore (I guess you are not able to use Android, google store, neither, huh?).


That is crap. That is not helpful or useful in the slightest. It is directly antagonistic, not just getting on nerves- it really is pretty much trolling.
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby MALsPa » 2015-02-25 14:37

The internet is full of people like nadir/schnuller, sitting behind their computers trying to come up with what they think are clever put-downs and insults. That's just the way it is. You can either let it bother you or just laugh it off, whatever. schnuller seems to be a fairly intelligent person; I just figure he's got some sort of issues and he tries to compensate for those by trying to be a forum jerk. I keep thinking that I'd like to put him in a room with my ex-wife -- that'd be entertaining, for sure. :twisted:
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby mor » 2015-02-25 15:39

JLloyd13 wrote:" what schnuller does is not that.

In a way what I was trying to tell you is that you don't know what he does.

I was just saying you have to look beyond what, at first sight, seems trollish behavior.
True, he's used multiple aliases (and he's not the only one), but don't confuse the trickery of having contemporary multiple accounts to **** with other users, with the silly but also harmless practice of dumping one and after some time coming back with another… even Prince did that. :lol:
Indeed there's hardly ever much mystery around every new nick and he never hides behind them: you need to digest a little more than a handful of posts to make sense of him, that's what I'm telling you.

For better or worse his contribution to this board is far more important and deeper than you can fathom and his behavior, although certainly debatable at times, also yields from the fact that "he's been there, he's seen things", which in his case is true.

Now I'm starting to feel like I'm defending him, which is not something I want to do because there's no need, moreover I kinda sorta see it differently so is not even like through him I further my own point of view.

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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby JLloyd13 » 2015-02-25 17:10

For better or worse his contribution to this board is far more important and deeper than you can fathom and his behavior, although certainly debatable at times, also yields from the fact that "he's been there, he's seen things", which in his case is true.


Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it for a second. I have yet to see any evidence of him contributing anything useful on this board. I'd love some examples. I don't care what he's 'seen', it doesn't take a genius to tell when a guys just being a d*ck.

And, he seems to have evaporated once again- typical troll.
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby mardybear » 2015-02-25 17:30

mean_dean wrote:
mardybear wrote:how in any way does this benefit

far too often I wonder that about the answers posted on this forum...sometimes even the questions....

Careful your true colours are showing through. Fail to see what your response has to do with the original post. Just another attempt to disrupt the forum and it's members.

Your statement is, of course, true, but this can be said about any forum, any topic, anywhere. Take a look at debianuserforums.org, for example. The most recent three topics of discussion include: icedove refuses to change from sans-serif font, U.S. spying program exposed, and grub and multibooting. Here's the most recent thread:

icedove refuses to change from sans-serif font

Postby Ray Andrews » February 25th, 2015, 3:14 am
Enlightened ones:

A bother with icedove: I can display recieved messages in the font of my choice, but when I compose, no matter which font I select, it always pops back to sans-serif. I have 'DejaVu Sans Mono' selected for all options, but no luck when composing or replying, it's always sans-serif.

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Re: icedove refuses to change from sans-serif font

Postby mean_dean » February 25th, 2015, 3:38 am
debian version
software versions
any 3rd party sources
screenshot

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Re: icedove refuses to change from sans-serif font

Postby Ray Andrews » February 25th, 2015, 5:06 am

mean_dean wrote:debian version
software versions
any 3rd party sources
screenshot



testing, up to date. icedove is 31.4.0, but it's been like this for as long as I can remember. Not much to show in a screenshot, when the 'write' window opens, the font box shows 'DevaVu Sans Mono' but the instant I touch the keyboard, it pops back to 'sans-serif'. I never really cared about it until I decided to change my chosen font (I used to use sans-serif anyway).

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Re: icedove refuses to change from sans-serif font

Postby mean_dean » February 25th, 2015, 5:34 am
You can set your preferred font in preferences. Then if I just click reply and start typing then it sticks to my font but if I click around in the window then it does pop back to sans-serif but it doesnt change what I have previously typed and if I select that text then it shows my preferred font in the box.

The behavior is kind of irritating. You could file a bug report if it bugs you that much.

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Enlightened ones! Take that back, no air of elitism on the forum - my bad.

So what was the outcome of this stimulating exchange between an apparent new user and seasoned veteran? Would a screenshot have provided real value - not likely. Did the issue get resolved - nope. Was a suitable work-around discovered - sorta - don't click-click here or click-click there. Was an existing bug report identified - nope. Was a bug search completed - uncertain. Was the user directed to the more appropriate Mozilla forum - nope. Did anything change in the half-hour exchange - nope. Stimulating and interesting - nope. Would it benefit other forum members - nope.

A troll will rarely directly assist fellow members in the support forum trolled, unless he is absolutely sure of the answer, it boosts his image or it manages to belittle others. He will typically sit back and wait for cannon fodder, then jump in with a snide remark or two. If nothing obvious and still bored, then he'll just make things up, take statements out of context or go off-topic. The example cited above would be almost too easy for a troll to latch onto - fish in a barrel.

PS - Mor your posts are always interesting but me thinks you would probably find a way to defend the actions of a drunk driver, speeding through a school zone with a beer in one hand, cell in the other and three unstrapped kids in the back seat.
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby thanatos_incarnate » 2015-02-25 17:34

JLloyd13 wrote:
For better or worse his contribution to this board is far more important and deeper than you can fathom and his behavior, although certainly debatable at times, also yields from the fact that "he's been there, he's seen things", which in his case is true.


Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it for a second. I have yet to see any evidence of him contributing anything useful on this board. I'd love some examples. I don't care what he's 'seen', it doesn't take a genius to tell when a guys just being a d*ck.

And, he seems to have evaporated once again- typical troll.

Somehow, it's sad that we're still in this old man mentality where user maturity and experience
excuses abuse of other users. It reminds me of the way my grandfather was brought up.
Yes, there are times where people are total douchebags and expect us to spoon feed them
and you can also be angry at them on a civilised and polite level, but for a supposedly mature
and experienced user to resort to cynicism and bile to get their message across is wrong in my
book. It also is ironically childish.
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby mor » 2015-02-25 19:45

JLloyd13 wrote:Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it for a second.

Oh well, you're not alone in that, maybe I'm wrong.
Or maybe the echo of my words will resound in your head a long time from now, and you'll "get" what I mean, maybe not, still I felt like I had to say it.

;)

mardybear wrote:PS - Mor your posts are always interesting but me thinks you would probably find a way to defend the actions of a drunk driver, speeding through a school zone with a beer in one hand, cell in the other and three unstrapped kids in the back seat.

I will always stand for anyone if I feel something's not right.
Even the man you depicted might be needing a different story to be told, besides that's not the point because as I said it was not my intention to "defend" nadir (he doesn't need me to), I chimed in just to suggest to look beyond his behavior.
I know I would have wanted someone to tell me that there could be something more in something I may have a distorted perception about.

Take care. :)

By the way Nadir has never said DUF was a place of knowledge and culture and as far as I know, neither did Dean.
If I understand them correctly, but I'm certain about nadir, they would argue that there's no such place anymore anywhere.

thanatos_incarnate wrote:Somehow, it's sad that we're still in this old man mentality where user maturity and experience
excuses abuse of other users.

I understand how you may have got that message but it was not what I meant.
Nadir's "maturity and experience" (funny how he would be the first not to like those words referred to him) is not a justification for being abusive.
Actually nadir has seldom been abusive, maybe never truly so.

As I said, you need to read between the lines, think about what he said in a broader sense, there's a bigger picture underneath.
JLloyd doesn't buy it, fair enough, you don't have to, fair too.

I'm just saying what I think, just take it for what it is.

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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby JLloyd13 » 2015-02-25 20:07

mor wrote:As I said, you need to read between the lines, think about what he said in a broader sense, there's a bigger picture underneath.


yes, clearly he is providing help in a secret code only true debian users can access, I shall therefor begin a life of prayer to seek this new level of enlightenment from Nadir/schnuller our great grand master.

:lol:

Seriously? Do you honestly believe there's some great wisdom behind each trolling post? Like, really? or are you just pulling my leg?
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby buntunub » 2015-02-26 00:10

I think its funny as hell when I see Systemd fanboi's supposedly taking some kind of "victory lap". Yes, they deserve one. The pushed for a piece of alpha/beta quality software to be pushed into future stable releases, and they got what they wanted because those who were in a good position to do something about it did nothing. As one who did try to fight against it, I now think the Debian community is getting precisely what they deserve. Its even laughable that there is now a movement to tuck tail and run away from Debian to some other alternative "home". TBH, I feel for those communities because what are they really getting aside from people who ran away from Debian due to Systemd?...
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby mor » 2015-02-26 10:10

JLloyd13 wrote:yes, clearly he is providing help in a secret code only true debian users can access, I shall therefor begin a life of prayer to seek this new level of enlightenment from Nadir/schnuller our great grand master.

Well, you are exaggerating a bit.
What I was saying is just that he is not what he seems, not that he is the wise man on the mountain.

The reason why I am saying all this is because even though I see most things differently from him, I have personally benefited from reading his shit and locking horns with him a few times. I value people that can challenge my ideas and push me to make them better, and by giving him a chance I was able to see a different point of view in many matters, which I am glad for.

But I understand not all feel the same way about this so I don't expect you to trust me or even listen to me.
I for one don't agree with his often relinquishing philosophy and overall pessimistic attitude, moreover I don't share his (and not just his) concern with the way things are going but exactly because of this I'm happy to have someone like him that keeps me in check.

I think it is not wise to just dismiss what he is doing as trollish, because it is not the product of the isolated sense of disaffection of a grumpy user: behind nadir there is a big chunk of users who are definitely loosing touch and feel (when they haven't already) with the community at large.

This is not just a matter of generational change with newer enthusiast people taking the place of older cranky ones.
The "linux" world you are living in now, despite all the commixtures that users like Nadir are concerned with, is still the fruit of the old school approach, attitude and philosophy and although I don't want to say change is either good or bad, I am going to say that change is gonna be different, and the very thing that it still is now (and that you too like) is changing in a way that may well be something that you too don't like anymore.

Keep in mind that aside from any generalization that can be done about things changing over time, the very nature of the "linux" world is rooted in certain values and ideologies that may well just not be priorities at all with the new wave. The self reliance and natural inquisitiveness of the order of early users may just be replaced by the carelessness of all those who washed on "linux" shore to run away from licenses' fees and viruses rather than from curiosity and eagerness to learn. The importance of software freedom accompanied by all the sacrifices that need to be made to comply, may as well be supplanted by the convenience of having things that "just work". It may all blur into a Google Play Market kind of free.

However exaggerated they may be both in nature and in the way they can be presented, such concerns are very important, and if you have the slightest doubt that indulging someone like nadir may be beneficial, then think about it. Or don't. ;)

There is a trade off of course, you can't argue with users who obstinate into being hostile, but Nadir, although may seem at first, is not that kind. That's what I wanted to say.

Bye
(honest, I'm not pulling your leg)
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Re: Has modern Linux lost its way?

Postby 1of12 » 2015-02-26 10:33

buntunub wrote:Systemd fanboi's ... pushed for a piece of alpha/beta quality software to be pushed into future stable releases, and they got what they wanted because those who were in a good position to do something about it did nothing.

You need to provide citations for this. Are you suggesting that users that wanted systemd somehow had a say in what the project adopted?

buntunub wrote:As one who did try to fight against it, I now think the Debian community is getting precisely what they deserve.

Citation needed. I'm interested to know exactly what you did to "fight" against it, would especially like to see what code you have written. But setting up an anti systemd website would also count - links please.

buntunub wrote:Its even laughable that there is now a movement to tuck tail and run away from Debian to some other alternative "home". TBH, I feel for those communities because what are they really getting aside from people who ran away from Debian due to Systemd?...

I'm lost. Are you using an OS, member of a cult or what? No idea what you're talking about. There is a vast choice of Linux distributions, but you're saying that users shouldn't switch to something else if they don't like what's going on?

So what is your solution? You don't like the decision, but you're not going to change distribution? Are you then going to remain using Debian and continue to complain about it on forums such as this one? That makes no sense.
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