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[SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

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Linadian
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[SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#1 Post by Linadian »

What I want to know is if anybody has tried using these instructions to remove systemd from Jessie? Does it work? I plan on using the amd64 netinst.

Next question, if I do this init swap from a command line install, will it make MATE for example, uninstallable after the init swap (dependencies)? Or should I install the whole MATE system first and then try the init swap?

I primarily want to know if the removal/swap works or not, if it just makes a nightmare-ish mess, I won't bother.
Last edited by Linadian on 2015-04-27 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#2 Post by mardybear »

Have not yet tried Jessie sans systemd, as Wheezy will likely receive long term support. This is what i previously remember reading, however, which may/not be helpful. If in doubt, just perform a virtual install for testing purposes. I don't have the hardware to run virtualbox.

I would think get your init straightened out first, then try installing Xorg and MATE. MATE or Xfce might be okay choices to try. Perform a simulated MATE install and see.

To the best of my knowledge most non-systemd users typically just end up utilizing a window manager. See old school desktop, which is more accurately a resistricted old school window manager system with a bunch of manual configuration hoops to jump through if you want wifi, printing, networking, etc. Plus a whole bunch of --no-recommends installs to keep systemd creep at bay. To many users who have more complex needs, need to run a business, etc, this would not end up being an *acceptable* installation/system.

Old school: http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html

This is what the wiki says:
Installing without systemd

Jessie installs systemd by default on new installs. Should one desire to install without systemd, i.e use sysvinit-core instead (old sysV5 init), it is possible to use preseed to replace systemd with sysvinit at the end of the install (This probably won't work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however).
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Install ... ut_systemd

There used to be software lists on old threads indicating software packages that were systemd clean. The list was okay but definitely limited user choice, compared to the 1000s of packages available in Debian's repository for systemd users.

I also remember reading that an easy way to keep the original init was to upgrade from Wheezy, rather than a fresh Jessie install. Someone also mentioned that Grub would then allow the user to select which init system to utilize at boot.

Again just stuff i read, YMMV.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#3 Post by Linadian »

@mardy...I appreciate your input, many thanks. Ironically I found this too around the time you were typing your post, lol... https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Install ... ut_systemd

I'm beginning to get the impression the systemd choke-hold has already started, being limited to non-systemd dependent packages is a tragic and sad joke. Maybe I'll just keep my farty Xubuntu install (it's a little pukey occassionally because I gutted the spyware out of it like a fish, lol, reminds me of Windhose after removing Internet Exploder, lol).
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#4 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:I'm beginning to get the impression the systemd choke-hold has already started . . .
Ya think? Removing systemd as init will not remove many other systemd components. dzz recently posted a completely decontaminated jessie with xfce here. Hopefully the Devuan iso to upgrade wheezy to jessie sans systemd will be available soon. Every last systemd dependency will be dealt with. Devuan is the true continuation of Debian. Debian Jessie is actually the fork that has lost its way . . .
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#5 Post by Linadian »

Thanks for everybody's input, I'm really not liking Xubuntu being my backup OS on my other SSD, it just feels slimey, like me and my computer constantly need a shower, lol. Anyway, I'm going to try the sysvinit preseed and for good measure, systemd removal/pinning after I get to the GUI, most likely will try Xfce and MATE, see which one breaks the least (how sad is that?). Apparently the Devuan and Xfce teams agreed to cooperate in a systemd free Xfce OS, or at least keep Xfce systemd dependency free for now, so that would be my best bet, if that breaks, f&%k it, I'm not even going to bother trying MATE.

If Debian 8 de-infested of systemd is a useless dog's breakfast like I think it's going to be, I'm just going to go with Salix as my backup OS on that drive (it's like Slackware for dummies, love slapt-get and Sourcery), I'm just so sick of this $#1+, it's not funny anymore.

I dumped Wheezy a few months ago and have been running PCLOS MATE virtually problem free ever since (a few tiny normal hiccups which were quickly fixed by the PCLOS devs), it's fast, stable, rolling and no f&%king systemd (it's my main OS and it's going to stay my main OS unless something better comes along, which appears to be highly unlikely in the near future). The people in the forum are very nice too, very helpful, you get the odd wienie who thinks they're a know it all (like an over enthusiastic puppy peeing on your shoe, lol) but generally it's a pretty good atmosphere. :idea:
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#6 Post by golinux »

I think you're underestimating what's being done over at devuan. But whatever works for you . . .
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#7 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:I think you're underestimating what's being done over at devuan. But whatever works for you . . .
How so? Their site is pretty quiet, are you subscribed to their mailing list? I'm not saying no to Devuan, never, but I haven't read/heard much about them lately.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#8 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:How so? Their site is pretty quiet, are you subscribed to their mailing list? I'm not saying no to Devuan, never, but I haven't read/heard much about them lately.
I am in the thick of it. Worked on the logo and desktop artwork, helped tweak some ESL issues. Yes, I am on the mail list and irc throughout the day so know pretty much exactly what is going on . . . at least everything that is public. Have you seen these pages?

https://git.devuan.org/explore/projects
https://ci.devuan.org/
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-pr ... -codenames

IMO, Devuan is the future of the Linux that Debian used to be. By the time Ascii rolls around Devuan will be a completely independent OS.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#9 Post by mardybear »

Linadian wrote:
I'm really not liking Xubuntu being my backup OS on my other SSD, it just feels slimey
Agree. Doesn't seem like a viable solution to get away from Debian.
Anyway, I'm going to try the sysvinit preseed and for good measure, systemd removal/pinning after I get to the GUI, most likely will try Xfce and MATE, see which one breaks the least (how sad is that?)
Sad. IMO you're going through too much effort for an OS that will be crippled and you don't want to use anymore. Still think the easiest transition attempt would be a Wheezy upgrade to Jessie.
If Debian 8 de-infested of systemd is a useless dog's breakfast like I think it's going to be, I'm just going to go with Salix as my backup OS on that drive (it's like Slackware for dummies, love slapt-get and Sourcery), I'm just so sick of this $#1+, it's not funny anymore.
Why i question your effort expenditure. A few guys broke their noggins on this stuff last year and still ended up with limited systems.

You already use and like PCLinuxOS - why not a second install as a backup. Wheezy will likely receive long term support for 1-3 years and by then Devuan should be available. Salix is pretty good. Also take a look at SliTaz.

If all this effort is just for a backup dual boot, then a 5 minute Puppy Linux or 20MB TinyCore install would do the trick. Hardly any effort at all and you could spend the rest of your day using an OS that you actually want to learn, or at least drop the blood pressure. On the TinyCore forum there is no discussion of systemd. It's irrelevant as they use BusyBox init and compile the software they want to use on their systems.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#10 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

Linadian wrote:I'm just going to go with Salix as my backup OS on that drive (it's like Slackware for dummies, love slapt-get and Sourcery), I'm just so sick of this $#1+, it's not funny anymore.
I hate to be the one to break this to you but it really does look like Patrick is taking Slackware up the systemd path...

FWIW FreeBSD is absolutely lovely -- highly recommended!

To follow up on mardybear's point: if you `dist-upgrade` from Wheezy then there are GRUB menu entries in the "Advanced Options" section to boot with SysVinit as PID1 ;)

Also, whilst I appreciate that you want nothing at all to do with systemd I really do think the pragmatic approach is to set SysVinit as the default PID1 and accept the presence of the various systemd libraries needed for other programs on your system.
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianU ... _Jessie.3F
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#11 Post by golinux »

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Also, whilst I appreciate that you want nothing at all to do with systemd I really do think the pragmatic approach is to set SysVinit as the default PID1 and accept the presence of the various systemd libraries needed for other programs on your system.
Pragmatism is a slippery slope that will slide you right to the bottom. And once there you might not be able to get back up to where you wanted to be all along. Never fear! Devuan will be there to get your box back on track.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#12 Post by Linadian »

Thanks again all for your further input. I've made up my mind, after much reading (here and elsewhere), I've come to the conclusion that anything Debian, Wheezy upgrade to Jessie or gutting a fresh Jessie install would just be a waste of time and installation bandwidth (a dog's breakfast mixed with barf and poop, lol). That being said, I'm anxiously waiting for a Devuan release (rc or otherwise), in the meantime, Salix 14.1 MATE is still completely pure and free of systemd, see DW's package list here, there's no shims, no libs, no nothing systemd, a breath of fresh air while I wait for a Devuan release. The reason why I don't put another PCLOS on the spare drive is because all their versions share the same repo, it's unlikely PCLOS will be closing their doors soon but it's always nice to have a fallback in the interim (the universe and life are totally random and unpredictable, who ever thought we would see the day Debian would sell out?! I'm still reeling). In the meantime, if Salix's Slackware base does go systemd, then it gets dumped too, that simple. It doesn't hurt to learn a new distro either, one can never learn too much. :)

The *BSDs are also a good idea but I'm not ready to make that leap yet, that's a related but other animal.

Edit: For Salix adventurers with systems similar to mine, I had to pass

Code: Select all

nomodesetting
to the installer disk kernel to get to the installer screen, good ol' Radeon, lol. I also have to pass

Code: Select all

iommu=soft
because of my chipset/BIOS.
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#13 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Also, whilst I appreciate that you want nothing at all to do with systemd I really do think the pragmatic approach is to set SysVinit as the default PID1 and accept the presence of the various systemd libraries needed for other programs on your system.
Pragmatism is a slippery slope that will slide you right to the bottom. And once there you might not be able to get back up to where you wanted to be all along. Never fear! Devuan will be there to get your box back on track.
Let me know when there's a Devuan rc, I'll use the Salix drive to test it, as in a bare metal install (IMHO, that's the only real way to test a distro), consider me an official tester 8) .
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#14 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:Let me know when there's a Devuan rc, I'll use the Salix drive to test it, as in a bare metal install (IMHO, that's the only real way to test a distro), consider me an official tester 8) .
When it's released, of course I'll post it here but I'm sure it will also be all over the tech news sites. You could also join the mailing list. It's pretty low volume. Or check out #devuan on freenode irc.

(You should probably delete your email from your post.)
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#15 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:
Linadian wrote:Let me know when there's a Devuan rc, I'll use the Salix drive to test it, as in a bare metal install (IMHO, that's the only real way to test a distro), consider me an official tester 8) .
When it's released, of course I'll post it here but I'm sure it will also be all over the tech news sites. You could also join the mailing list. It's pretty low volume. Or check out #devuan on freenode irc.

(You should probably delete your email from your post.)

Good advice but you quoted it in your post, lol. :wink: :lol: You have to edit your post too. :P
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Re: Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie...

#16 Post by golinux »

Linadian wrote:
golinux wrote:(You should probably delete your email from your post.)

Good advice but you quoted it in your post, lol. :wink: :lol: You have to edit your post too. :P
Ha. Brainfart. Fixed now.
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Re: [SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie.

#17 Post by golinux »

@Linadian . . . Interesting discussion on #devuan this morning. You might want to take a peek.

And this post on the mail list. Yup, lockin confirmed via debootstrap.
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Re: [SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie.

#18 Post by Linadian »

golinux wrote:@Linadian . . . Interesting discussion on #devuan this morning. You might want to take a peek.

And this post on the mail list. Yup, lockin confirmed via debootstrap.
Yes, interesting indeed, the solution to some newer versions of apps being systemd infested is to use the last virgin version, before they were befouled and sacrificed to the Lennfart Red$hat gods. I wish I was a developer, I'd reverse engineer this $#1+ right in to the ground.

BTW, I installed Salix 14.1 MATE on my spare SSD last night, it sure is different than your usual hand holding binary distros, they have about 5Gs of binaries, but the rest is installed via Sourcery, which is really cool and fun to watch, unfortunately, not everything compiles and installs perfectly, but that doesn't bring down the whole system either, not like a certain buggy init, lol. It's kinda neat rolling up the sleeves again and getting my hands a little dirty, even though Salix is Slackware for n00bs, it's a quick reminder of how things are REALLY pieced together. :? :shock: :)
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Re: [SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie.

#19 Post by Linadian »

Ah crap, now I remember why I abandoned Salix Xfce, same reason(s), it hates my printer and pysolfc won't work (oh come on, who can live without pysolfc, lol), CPU scaling is a pain to get working, etc. Anyway, you guys were right, I'm going to do a Wheezy install (with the Jessie sysvinit seed, ON PURPOSE), then do the $#1+stemd clean in the CL-->enabe backports to install MATE, I had Wheezy Xfce before, I got sick of the hokiness. Then if I never use it, it can just sit on the drive waiting for the Devuan upgrade, if the Devuan upgrade breaks it, then I do a clean Devuan install, no sweat. :)
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Re: [SOLVED] Serious question, removing systemd from Jessie.

#20 Post by mardybear »

You're making me dizzy :lol:

I installed Salix last year and played around with it a bit. It was pretty good. Didn't have any complaints regarding hardware compatibility. It worked well, just wasn't my thing. Probably the best of all the Slackwares. At least it's relatively lean, can handle dependencies and doesn't default install everything but the kitchen sink. Stayed on the drive <24 hours.

It's hard to find an OS that does everything Debian can. That's probably my route too, Wheezy long term --> Devuan as the primary system, plus my hobby distributions. Seems to be the most logical plan.

Any forum member with >10 posts should be required to have a Debian installation for posting privileges anyway :wink:
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