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Debian & Desktop Users, 2 cents

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
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nopposan
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Debian & Desktop Users, 2 cents

#1 Post by nopposan »

Hi, I'm a computer user, not a computer enthusiast . . . yet. I use the desktop, and I'm o.k. with command lines but I had to grow into it.

I began to realize that as computers were supposedly becoming easier to use they were actually getting better at using us. 'Don't mean to sound like a science fiction writer. What I mean to say is that as I "progressed" from using an Apple II e in high school to using Windows 98 in college and now Windows XP at work many things got easier but many things happened that I didn't authorize as a computer user. We've generally become more and more beholden to the whims of the computer OS as desktop users. This is disturbing to me, so I really love GNU/Linux . . . for now.

I think Debian is a Linux distribution that gets it right as far as it lets the user decide just about everything. 'Trouble is, many users aren't ready to make some of those decisions 'cause they don't really know what they're doing; I can often be counted amongst them. :( I think Debian would be improved if it easily served up a certain number of meta-choices for beginners; I mean, I know now that I can type "install tasks=kde-desktop" at the boot prompt of the net install, but I had to search on Google to find out about this and I probably never would have known if I hadn't read about the xfce-desktop option in a post to this user forum. Choice is good, but new users need to be educated about those choices and many don't have my patience and tenacity. What's needed is a mandatory tutorial for beginners in the installer and a variety of choices between desktop usage requirements. In other words, "Do you have a processor above 200 megahertz and at least 128 GB of ram? If yes, then you can use any of these N desktop environments. If not, then we suggest you choose a slim desktop like Xfce or one of these window managers." We non-enthusiasts need hand-holding is what I'm saying.

'Just my 2 cents.

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#2 Post by Grifter »

Yeah I agree, a condensed info-sheet should be available in the installer, and the installer shouldn't presume what you want to run

on the other hand, once you have become just a little more experienced with deb, you quickly learn to not install any tasks at all, and just apt-get the things _you_ want, after the base install is done (:
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines...

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#3 Post by Lavene »

As you say there are users and the are users ;)
What has a tendency to throw new users is the fact that they have to install the OS, something they probably have never done. But if you have installed Windows a couple of times you will notice that the process is quite similar.

The trouble starts mounting however when the beginner starts off with some fairly advanced wishes like multibooting etc. It's not at all difficult but it do require knowledge of partitions.

Debian has a vast amount of choices. This is also a new thing from the absolute beginner. So many desktop environments. What the heck is the difference between a DE and WM? What do I need? And what software do I need? There are 17 000 programs in the repos... crazy!

It's not easy to be a Linux virgin that comes directly to Debian. Unless... of course you happen to be so twisted that you read the INSTALLATION MANUAL! ;) It's amazingly comprehensive.

But in reality I don't think Debian is aimed at the absolute beginner... the type that want and expect a Windows way of doing stuff. I really think Debian is an excellent second distro to try (and quite often it ends up being the last one people try) but for a Windows refugee wanting to get up and running with a minimum frustrations I tend to recommend Ubuntu. It's excellent for beginners with it's pretty installer and limited packages installed by default. And when that user gets used to Linux (and frustrated with Ubuntu) he'll migrate to Debian :)

Tina

PS: Not saying I'm opposed to good online help included in the installer. It's just that I have no idea what help functions, if any, are already available.

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#4 Post by garrincha »

Lavene wrote:Unless... of course you happen to be so twisted that you read the INSTALLATION MANUAL! ;) It's amazingly comprehensive.
Ah, I remember reading this very manual before I did the install of Debian/Etch ('testing'). The following sections from the manual:
2.1.2.1. CPU

Nearly all x86-based processors are supported; this includes AMD and VIA (former Cyrix) processors as well. Also the new processors like Athlon XP and Intel P4 Xeon are supported. However, Linux will not run on 286 or earlier processors.
2.5. Memory and Disk Space Requirements

You must have at least 32MB of memory and 110MB of hard disk space. For a minimal console-based system (all standard packages), 250MB is required. If you want to install a reasonable amount of software, including the X Window System, and some development programs and libraries, you'll need at least 400MB. For a more or less complete desktop system, you'll need a few gigabytes.
4.1. Intel

Intel 386SX/DX/SL, 486SX/DX/SL/SX2/DX2/DX4, Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III (regular and Xeon versions), Pentium 4, and Celeron (including mobile versions of all of the above) are all supported.
did NOT answered my questions about performance of any old Pentium systems up to PII especially if you want a full desktop installation like KDE. Before I did all of these though, I tried out the Knoppix LiveCD and the KDE worked fine, if a bit choppy and slow, I had assumed it was because of the data transfer from CDROM. I had doubt until I tried a lightweight LiveCD called Damn Small Linux (DSL) which incidentally like Knoppix is based on pure debian and it was quite fast.

Of course, I had to go through the convoluted process of installing a base system and a Gnome desktop, since I had no idea of what these could do and how they will perform on an old hardware. It was only later that I discovered that I could do away with it, and instead install a slim base system and a lightweight WM like Fluxbox.

DSL (and Knoppix LiveCD I think) incidentally has Fluxbox, but I didn't know about and had no idea till I check their website.
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#5 Post by hcgtv »

garrincha wrote:Of course, I had to go through the convoluted process of installing a base system and a Gnome desktop, since I had no idea of what these could do and how they will perform on an old hardware. It was only later that I discovered that I could do away with it, and instead install a slim base system and a lightweight WM like Fluxbox.
Looking towards the future, the installer could check RAM and look at it's BogoMips score to recommend an alternate to Gnome or KDE for the user.
Bert Garcia - When all you have is a keyboard

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#6 Post by Lavene »

garrincha wrote:Ah, I remember reading this very manual before I did the install of Debian/Etch ('testing'). The following sections from the manual:
The manual I linked to was for Sarge by the way. Which is the official Debian (still). It will be updated when Etch is released.

But I hear you. I'm sure there could be tons of documentation that would be both useful and welcome. The thing is that someone has to do it... :) There are a lot of documentation needing work.

I'm not trying to be arrogant here, just trying to illustrate that Debian is a community effort. And quite often 'something' will not be done until those who want 'something' does it. Because the people already involved in the project usually are already swamped...

Tina

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michael7
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#7 Post by michael7 »

Lavene wrote:Debian has a vast amount of choices.
Lavene wrote:It's not easy to be a Linux virgin that comes directly to Debian.
Lavene wrote:But in reality I don't think Debian is aimed at the absolute beginner... the type that want and expect a Windows way of doing stuff. I really think Debian is an excellent second distro to try (and quite often it ends up being the last one people try) but for a Windows refugee wanting to get up and running with a minimum frustrations I tend to recommend Ubuntu. It's excellent for beginners with it's pretty installer and limited packages installed by default. And when that user gets used to Linux (and frustrated with Ubuntu) he'll migrate to Debian :)
Those are good comments and I agree totally. I used Mandrake, Mepis and Kanotix before migrating to Debian. Mandrake and Mepis made most of the decisions for me-- just what a beginner needs. Kanotix required more input, more decision-making on my part which I came to relish. Now, I use Etch and think it's great. Tina is "spot on" when she said Debian is an excellent second distro (or in my case, an excellent fourth).

Having said that, let me add that I understand nopposan's sentiments perfectly. I wrote and posted a lengthy HOWTO about installing KDE Etch on this board and tried to target the Debian beginner. Because I think that Etch is SO DAMN GOOD, I wanted to help the interested newbie install Etch with the least amount of frustration possible. Looking back at it, I can see many ways that I could have improved it, but my intention was consistent with nopposan's comments.
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#8 Post by DeanLinkous »

But if Ubuntu has lots of proprietary goodness and things "just work" with ubuntu and it has easy software installs of prorpietary software and so forth then the user comes to debian and cannot get stuff to work, to install, to do things that "just work" in Ubuntu so Ubuntu is exactly where they go back to. They never had to read stuff to use Ubuntu why should they have to read stuff to use Debian.




Now after reading that the first time....go back and remove the word Ubuntu and insert the word Microsoft. Sounds about the same doesnt it? We hear exactly that from new users about microsoft and linux dont we? So what are we contributing to? Are we introducing REAL choice? Free software? User maintained control? Or is it 'meet the new boss same as the old boss'?
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!

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#9 Post by Grifter »

DeanLinkous wrote:Are we introducing REAL choice? Free software? User maintained control? Or is it 'meet the new boss same as the old boss'?
I think so, I see ubuntu as a culling, a weed whacker, those that are interested and curious might try it, but only the people willing to expand their own mind stick with it

One thing is for sure, ubuntu has managed to reach lots of people who had never heard of lunix before, and that's good both in terms of increasing awareness and peoples' perception, aswell as getting some new meat for the grinder
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#10 Post by DeanLinkous »

Grifter wrote: I think so, I see ubuntu as a culling, a weed whacker, those that are interested and curious might try it, but only the people willing to expand their own mind stick with it

One thing is for sure, ubuntu has managed to reach lots of people who had never heard of lunix before, and that's good both in terms of increasing awareness and peoples' perception, aswell as getting some new meat for the grinder
That is a interesting perspective...I can almost appreciate it if I reword it a bit to - The filter for the chaff? Only the "good" make it through?

Still not sure reaching lots of people is a good thing if what you are reaching them with is a linux that is (getting) proprietary while still claiming http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy
If they would take that page down I would feel a lot better. :D

But I definately appreciate the interesting perspective and will have to think on it a while! Very yummmy....
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!

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#11 Post by Blyiss »

nopposan wrote:I think Debian would be improved if it easily served up a certain number of meta-choices for beginners; I mean, I know now that I can type "install tasks=kde-desktop" at the boot prompt of the net install, but I had to search on Google to find out about this and I probably never would have known if I hadn't read about the xfce-desktop option in a post to this user forum. Choice is good, but new users need to be educated about those choices and many don't have my patience and tenacity. What's needed is a mandatory tutorial for beginners in the installer and a variety of choices between desktop usage requirements.
How much education did you get from uncle Bill?
"New users" often tend to complain about anything.
Why just not to continue using your XP, where everything is already decided on your behalf?
Last edited by Blyiss on 2007-02-10 20:31, edited 2 times in total.

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nopposan
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choice

#12 Post by nopposan »

I hear you, Tina. We'll see whether I decide to donate my "expertise" to drafting some more documentation for Debian. Right now, I have to do my taxes.

I don't really think Ubuntu is all it's cracked up to be; Dapper is alright, but it's branding itself as old hat. I'm using Edgy now, but like I said in another post, I'm going to switch to pure Debian 'cause Edgy is sketchy.

I think that better, more timely and easy to find documentation and standardized meta-packages (N sizes fit most) could really allow Debian to give Ubuntu a run for its money.

It's cool that it's easy to install Ubuntu, but we shouldn't be expecting the Windows refugees, like myself, to come through one distro to another to another before they settle down -- that's just inconvenient. That's why I'm having trouble convincing others to switch over. For example, my boss at work has an old Win98 box, not 98SE, and I'm telling him he should try Linux instead of 98SE or XP; he's seen me try all these Linux distros before settling down though. He says, "I don't want another hobby. I just want to keep my old computer going." Honestly, I've been having fun, and installing Debian has also been a blast! But maybe I'm just sick in the head, ya know? That's what he thinks.

P.S. For him, I'm thinking to recommend Freespire . . . gulp. 'Never actually tried it though.

Cheers.
Last edited by nopposan on 2007-02-11 15:05, edited 1 time in total.

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#13 Post by nopposan »

Blyiss wrote:
How much education did you get from uncle Bill?
"New users" often tend to complaint about anything.
Why just not to continue using your XP, where everything is already decided on your behalf?
You're right, Blyiss, I've received plenty of education from Uncle Bill. Like I said, Uncle Steve gave me my first tutorial. I guess Uncle Richard and Uncle Linus are trying hard to let me earn my Bacheloreate.

I'm really not complaining. I feel I have no right to complain. I appreciate everything the GNU/Linux community is doing to bring us all better computing.

I absolutely do not want everything to be decided on my behalf. I just think folks who are "Windows refugees" like me need to have a starting point, several major roads to take, and a clearly marked map. There are how many different distributions to try?? I've tried about a dozen so far. Like I say, I'm lovin' it but most people wouldn't. I'm hoping I can help some of my friends to make the right choice the first time.

P.S. You're cute.

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#14 Post by Lavene »

Just an apropos: If people who want to switch to Linux read this excellent article first the number of "linux sucks" posts from beginners would be drastically reduced on the various Linux forums around the web. It's a great reality check...

Tina

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#15 Post by nopposan »

Good read, Tina.

From Tina's link:
Clearly, software designed around the needs of the first user will not be suitable for the second, and vice versa. So how can any software be called "user-friendly", if we all have different needs?

The simple answer: User-friendly is a misnomer, and one that makes a complex situation seem simple.

What does "user-friendly" really mean? Well, in the context in which it is used, "user friendly" software means "Software that can be used to a reasonable level of competence by a user with no previous experience of the software." This has the unfortunate effect of making lousy-but-familiar interfaces fall into the category of "user-friendly".
I see the point. However, though I do admit "user-friendly" is an ambiguous term, I'd argue that the OS package that is the most useful for the most people is the ideal. Each of us has different needs and desires. GNU/Linux can usually meet whatever those need/desires are. If the community of programmers and documenters makes it easier for people to get whatever it is they want then they'll adopt GNU/Linux and we'll all be happier computer users.
Something to bear in mind, however, is that "training wheels" are often available as "optional extras" for Linux software: They might not be obvious, but frequently they're available.

Take mplayer. You use it to play a video file by typing mplayer filename in a terminal. You fastforward & rewind using the arrow keys and the PageUp & PageDown keys. This is not overly "user-friendly". However, if you instead type gmplayer filename, you'll get the graphical frontend, with all its nice, friendly , familiar buttons.

Take ripping a CD to MP3 (or Ogg): Using the command-line, you need to use cdparanoia to rip the files to disc. Then you need an encoder. . . It's a hassle, even if you know exactly how to use the packages (imho). So download & install something like Grip. This is an easy-to-use graphical frontend that uses cdparanoia and encoders behind-the-scenes to make it really easy to rip CDs, and even has CDDB support to name the files automatically for you.

The same goes for ripping DVDs: The number of options to pass to transcode is a bit of a nightmare. But using dvd::rip to talk to transcode for you makes the whole thing a simple, GUI-based process which anybody can do.
So, that's my point. Users who need more "training wheels" should be funneled to the right distro(s), the right software, and the right tutorials. Ideally, when/if they no longer need the training wheels they'll be able to stick with the same distro but tweak it to their new tastes. They should not have to switch to a new distro just because they've become better users.
It's great, but it's not the point. The point is to make Linux the best OS that the community is capable of making. Not for other people: For itself. The oh-so-common threats of "Linux will never take over the desktop unless it does such-and-such" are simply irrelevant: The Linux community isn't trying to take over the desktop. They really don't care if it gets good enough to make it onto your desktop, so long as it stays good enough to remain on theirs. The highly-vocal MS-haters, pro-Linux zealots, and money-making FOSS purveyors might be loud, but they're still minorities.

That's what the Linux community wants: an OS that can be installed by whoever really wants it. So if you're considering switching to Linux, first ask yourself what you really want.

If you want an OS that doesn't chauffeur you around, but hands you the keys, puts you in the driver's seat, and expects you to know what to do: Get Linux. You'll have to devote some time to learning how to use it, but once you've done so, you'll have an OS that you can make sit up and dance.
Well, maybe I'm a pro-Linux zealot then. I want GNU/Linux and OS to beat proprietary OS's or at least equal them in market share; this is for the benefit of the whole computer-using community throughout the world as it will make more software available and usable on more computers at a lower cost (both in effort and money) -- it's more efficient to have an open-source OS with large market share.

My 2 cents.
Last edited by nopposan on 2007-02-12 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
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#16 Post by DeanLinkous »

IMO familiarity is the key, it is what we confuse with "friendly" and "easy" and the only way to gain familiarity with something is to use something. Use something, it becomes familiar hence it become friendly and easy....

just use it.....
Aye, fight and you may fail, sellout, and you may live, a while. And dying in your MScash beds, you'll be willin' to trade ALL the cash, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may FUD our customers, but they'll never take...OUR FREEDOM!

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#17 Post by Blyiss »

nopposan wrote: So, that's my point. Users who need more "training wheels" should be funneled to the right distro(s), the right software, and the right tutorials. Ideally, when/if they no longer need the training wheels they'll be able to stick with the same distro but tweak it to their new tastes. They should not have to switch to a new distro just because they've become better users.
You act like a typical Windows user. For the guys you are worrying about there is made a wonderful distro. It is called Windows XP. I read this article too but long ago. It also says:
Newcomers complain about the existence of what the established users consider to be fundamental features, and resent having the read a manual to get something working. But complaining that there are too many distros; or that software has too many configuration options; or that it doesn't work perfectly out-of-the-box.
The biggest cause of friction tends to be in the online interactions: A user new to Linux asks for help with a problem he's having. When he doesn't get that help at what he considers an acceptable rate, he starts complaining and demanding more help. Because that's what he's used to doing with paid-for tech support.

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#18 Post by rickh »

They should not have to switch to a new distro just because they've become better users.
They should want to switch to another distro because they've become better users.

More and more, I am recommending that new users start with a pay plan like Xandros or Linspire. Ubuntu is OK because they have advertised themselves as the "free" (???) newbie friendly introduction to Linux. Those distros deserve to hold the hands and encourage the hapless, because they have decided that is their calling. Many of these people will never move beyond the training wheel stage, and they should be paying for that privilege.

When a person begins understanding and caring about issues like FOSS and "libre" They will need to move on, and they will be prepared to do so.

The incredibly steep, albeit short, learning curve from Windows to Linux means that most people wind up feeling somewhat antagonistic toward their first distro. They are generally more pleased when the second one is so much easier. They don't realize that it got easier because of all the "ouchies" inflicted on them earlier.

***

All that said, the LNW article is a classic ... probably linked for newbies these days nearly as often as ESR's, How to Ask a Question.

My favorite line from it goes something like, "I don't care if Linux is good enough to be on your desktop, only that it's good enough to stay on mine."
Last edited by rickh on 2007-02-12 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
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nopposan
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no complaints

#19 Post by nopposan »

Again, I'm not complaining.

Windows is and always will be inherently flawed by virtue of being controlled by an outside entity that just wants more money. IMHO. 'Probably also true of Apple, though they're clever enough to make their product different and better than Windows.

I edited my previous post to address some of what you've just posted. 'Sorry for the backtracking.

P.S. I'm a newbie but I've tried about a dozen different distros. I'm willing to learn and willing to work. 'Wanna bring some friends along though; an older relative who's kinda tired of relearning computer OS's (Unix, Apple, Mac, Win3.1, Windows newest bling, etc.), people who just want to keep their old computers running without buying MS Windows, students who can't afford to buy new computers, etc.

Thanks. I've said my peace. If you folks want to continue this discussion, please let's avoid making it redundant or "classic."

Cheers.
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nopposan
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they should want to switch?

#20 Post by nopposan »

It's a hassle to switch, rickh. I think there should be distros that start off as an easy switchover from Windows or Mac but can be whatever the user wishes. (I actually think Debian might be getting near exactly that kind of distro. 'Love the net install and the idea of an installer.exe!) Users should have guidance toward those distros unless their needs/wants are decidedly fixed.

Again, my 2 cents worth.
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