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How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

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Apostolos
Posts: 8
Joined: 2015-08-18 21:56
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#61 Post by Apostolos »

Ubuntu 9.04 or something was the first distribution that I've tried. I happen to like Unity, while I don't like the concept behind Gnome 3. These are personal choices.
The last time I installed Ubuntu (a year or so ago) I did it using Ubuntu Minimal CD (40 Mb) which is somewhat similar to debian-netinstall. You can install Ubuntu with no DE if you want or with plain Openbox, Fluxbox etc.

I don't agree with the following statement. 'When you want e.g. to have a highly configurable desktop Debian may be your choice.' All GNU/Linux distributions are highly configurable. There aren't many differences between Debian and Ubuntu in that respect. I can't think of any significant difference.

I am using Debian Sid with Plasma 5 now.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#62 Post by Randicus »

Apostolos wrote:I can't think of any significant difference.
You cannot think of any? Well, for starters:

Non-free software.
Debian: Not included in default system.
Ubuntu: Standard.

Free software.
Debian: Commitment to the philosophy of free software.
Ubuntu: Committed to including whatever proprietary software that will make Skype and YouTube users happy.

Root
Debian: Sudo not enabled by default, but left for users who want it to configure it.
Ubuntu: Root log-in disabled.

Advertising.
Debian: No advertising and links to Amazon on GUI.
Ubuntu: Users must disable Amazon links.

Spyware.
Debian: No spyware.
Ubuntu: Spyware reports application preferences to Canonical.

Apostolos
Posts: 8
Joined: 2015-08-18 21:56
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#63 Post by Apostolos »

There isn't any significant difference in configurability. I said:
All GNU/Linux distributions are highly configurable. There aren't many differences between Debian and Ubuntu in that respect.
Obviously there are other differences like those you point out.
I think you misinterpreted my comment. I hope it didn't happen on purpose.

runfrodorun
Posts: 202
Joined: 2013-06-19 05:09

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#64 Post by runfrodorun »

I personally hate ubuntu for three reasons:

1. political; When big distributions make big changes to their software, it sets a trend in the linux community and I sometimes feel as if other distributions try to follow that trend. I think I saw somebody on the forums today use the term 'ubuntification' of linux.

2. structure: the package structure in ubuntu is terrible compared to debian. Creating an apt repository takes engineering to keep it from falling apart, and unlike debian's repository, it is clear that no engineering went into the ubuntu repos. I had the displeasure of fixing broken package configurations that totally nuked the system on friend's computers more than once, and never with debian.

3. demographics: It's a distro for less experienced users. They usually have no investment in the future of linux so when tiny little things like ui don't know... say, systemd switches happen nobody there cares and then since it is a grossly popular distribution, it sets a standard that distributions can switch to systemd and it'll be just fine and nobody will be mortified or upset, not thinking about the responsibility that they've taken under... they say you have a choice but you really don't these days unless you want to compile your own distribution. There's gentoo, the BSD's, slackware, and a few small obscure distributions that you can still use, and that's all because every distribution thought it wasn't their problem and people would always have somewhere to go if they didn't want it.

Just a thought

-RJ
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.

MALsPa
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#65 Post by MALsPa »

runfrodorun wrote:It's a distro for less experienced users.
Getting close to 10 years running Linux here and I'm still running Ubuntu, along with Debian and a handful of other distros. Debian since Etch, Ubuntu since 6.06 (I stick with LTS releases, for the most part). I like Debian best (I could be called a Debian fanboy), but for me, Ubuntu's been pretty good, not as nearly as bad as folks here make it out to be.

My thing is, if a distro works out okay on my hardware, I'll keep using it. I don't really care about the politics and all that. I think that since about Ubuntu 10.04, I've said to myself, "Maybe this'll be my last run with Ubuntu," but then the next LTS release comes out and it does fine here and then I'm like, "Okay, we'll see what happens next time." Who knows, maybe 16.04 won't work out for me.

Rather than going along with the things other people say, I've kept Ubuntu LTS along with Debian Stable, to see for myself how they compare, and how things hold up over time. I've spent time with quite a few other distros; dropped the ones that no longer worked out, for whatever reasons. Haven't had a reason to drop Ubuntu yet. The LTS releases are almost as good as Stable, in my opinion. YMMV, but I wonder how many folks here have actually had a continuous run with Ubuntu that's lasted as long as mine.

I'm cool with Unity as well as with GNOME Shell; I've added GNOME Shell to my 14.04 installation. With Unity, I just turn off the Amazon search stuff, no big deal. I'm not gonna get all freaked out about something that's so easy to turn off.

I don't know. Use what works best for you, somebody else's opinion doesn't really matter.

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oswaldkelso
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#66 Post by oswaldkelso »

Like many I started out with Unbuntu 5 or something and as a newbie it's was ace especially for a PPC user. But by version 8.10 it was clear their free-software values were on the decline and it was time to get out.

The other thing that got me was the over zealous mods where topics were strictly monitored and locked on a whim.

Unlike here where you could have a free and frank discussion, and use swear words and have major disagreements with out fear of a ban or topics being locked...Well that used to be the case. Until now the mere mention of systemd or it's consequences and it seems the padlock appears.

Not that much difference between Debian and Ubuntu any more imo.
Free Software Matters
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Ash init thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
My oldest used PC: 1999 imac 333Mhz 256MB PPC abandoned by Debian

somebodyelse
Posts: 231
Joined: 2015-05-24 17:15

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#67 Post by somebodyelse »

This (about 18 mins in) http://gensho.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-mee ... eedom.webm reflects at least what I feel about Ubuntu.

Wh1pLash
Posts: 10
Joined: 2015-08-23 05:27

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#68 Post by Wh1pLash »

Ubuntu is good for the beginner linux user cause it just works but after you learn more about linux like using APT you should switch to debian or something else

runfrodorun
Posts: 202
Joined: 2013-06-19 05:09

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#69 Post by runfrodorun »

MALsPa wrote:
runfrodorun wrote:It's a distro for less experienced users.
Getting close to 10 years running Linux here and I'm still running Ubuntu, along with Debian and a handful of other distros. Debian since Etch, Ubuntu since 6.06 (I stick with LTS releases, for the most part). I like Debian best (I could be called a Debian fanboy), but for me, Ubuntu's been pretty good, not as nearly as bad as folks here make it out to be.

My thing is, if a distro works out okay on my hardware, I'll keep using it. I don't really care about the politics and all that. I think that since about Ubuntu 10.04, I've said to myself, "Maybe this'll be my last run with Ubuntu," but then the next LTS release comes out and it does fine here and then I'm like, "Okay, we'll see what happens next time." Who knows, maybe 16.04 won't work out for me.

Rather than going along with the things other people say, I've kept Ubuntu LTS along with Debian Stable, to see for myself how they compare, and how things hold up over time. I've spent time with quite a few other distros; dropped the ones that no longer worked out, for whatever reasons. Haven't had a reason to drop Ubuntu yet. The LTS releases are almost as good as Stable, in my opinion. YMMV, but I wonder how many folks here have actually had a continuous run with Ubuntu that's lasted as long as mine.

I'm cool with Unity as well as with GNOME Shell; I've added GNOME Shell to my 14.04 installation. With Unity, I just turn off the Amazon search stuff, no big deal. I'm not gonna get all freaked out about something that's so easy to turn off.

I don't know. Use what works best for you, somebody else's opinion doesn't really matter.
I suppose that's fine, but the point I'm trying to make is not 'it's too easy therefore it's bad' it's really more about the lack of investment in linux's future. I know there are experienced users that still use ubuntu, but if it's only 5% of the userbase, then it doesn't really matter.

-RJ
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.

MALsPa
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#70 Post by MALsPa »

oswaldkelso wrote:The other thing that got me was the over zealous mods where topics were strictly monitored and locked on a whim.
That bugged me a lot, too. I think that the mods there have calmed down, though. Not sure about that, since I don't spend nearly as much time at the Ubuntu forums as I did several years ago.
Wh1pLash wrote:Ubuntu is good for the beginner linux user cause it just works but after you learn more about linux like using APT you should switch to debian or something else
I'd say that after you learn more about Linux, you go with what works best for your situation. You get to a point where you can comfortably run just about any distro. An "experienced" Linux user might have good reasons for going with Ubuntu, or even Linux Mint, which is arguably even more of a so-called beginner's distro than Ubuntu is. Sometimes you get to a point where you just wanna choose the tool that lets you get things done as quickly and as easily as possible, doesn't matter if it's a beginner's distro or not.

mittgreen
Posts: 26
Joined: 2015-08-24 03:05

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#71 Post by mittgreen »

Well, I started with Ubuntu. Quite frankly now I don't understand these tons of Debian remixes, since adding packages is very easy and doesn't require mad skills. Ubuntu, I reckon, was one of them long time ago. Okay, they've made their own installer, some artwork and Software Centre to make Debian possible to use if you are a housewife (like someone said Ubuntu on Bantu means "I couldn't install Debian").

Nowadays they are moving away from the Unix philosophy, from their Debian roots, constantly trying to invent the wheel, live on the bleeding edge. Yes, I am about Wayland, Mir, systemd, Snappy, Unity, Upstart, all this crap tends to move a lot of users away. Funny enough that Wayland was never used even though the switch was announced in 2010, Mir is still not ready even though the switch was announced in 2013, Upstart had gone away, Unity is becoming even more shitty and perfectly unusable on desktop, Their policy of hiding the terminal farther and and farther is ridiculous. Canonical is probably one of the best companies in making bloatware (competing with SUSE). Ubuntu Phone is only made by an obscure Chinese company you've probably never heard of and maybe will never do. But hey, it's open source! Dell even has a couple of laptops with Ubuntu preinstalled.

But Ubuntu made a lot of efforts to make GNU/Linux popular and, you know, they succeeded. It still wins over Windows or OSX (at least I think so, because I didn't use them a lot) once it's open-source and *user-friendly*. Some doesn't even know that there are some other GNU/Linux distributions not counting Mint and Ubuntu.

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#72 Post by Randicus »

Wh1pLash wrote:Ubuntu is good for the beginner linux user cause it just works but after you learn more about linux like using APT you should switch to debian or something else
Or a beginner can install Debian, read the manual, and know the basics fairly quickly. Debian is very easy to install and everything, other than wireless, works. There is no need for a beginner to use Ubuntu or Mint as a transition. All that is needed is the ability to read and the willingness to do it.

runfrodorun
Posts: 202
Joined: 2013-06-19 05:09

Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#73 Post by runfrodorun »

I would even extend that to say that there have been very few times that I haven't had everything work with the default install options for debian... wireless included. The exceptions to the rule have been any PPC macs, which is understandible, and more- ubuntu any many other distributions did not even work as well as debian out of the box on those so there's that.

Wifi worst you'll have to do is install some non-free firmware and otherwise it's 0 work.
mittgreen wrote: But Ubuntu made a lot of efforts to make GNU/Linux popular and, you know, they succeeded. It still wins over Windows or OSX (at least I think so, because I didn't use them a lot) once it's open-source and *user-friendly*. Some doesn't even know that there are some other GNU/Linux distributions not counting Mint and Ubuntu.
No argument with windows, with windows 10 microsoft seems to be competing with canonical for privacy violation championship. but I think I might even take OSX with a gentoo userland over it over ubuntu... and just know how ashamed I am saying that, that's how much I dislike the direction ubuntu is going, userbase and os.

But that popularity is not without its downsides too. I personally, without evidence to support, believe that linux was always destined to be wildly popular as a server operating system since the early 2000's, replacing all of windows, solaris, and other proprietary unixes. It's the popularity in less invested users like desktop users that drives senseless politics like systemd, and so popularity is not always a good thing, and where and who you are popular with matters. Take crux for example, does not have systemd, crossing my fingers that it never will. nobody less than a super user would touch that distro. Obviously this is correlation and not causation, but it's a trend that can't really be denied. There are still people out there that are into the unix mindset, maybe they're hard to find.
MALsPa wrote:I'd say that after you learn more about Linux, you go with what works best for your situation. You get to a point where you can comfortably run just about any distro. An "experienced" Linux user might have good reasons for going with Ubuntu, or even Linux Mint, which is arguably even more of a so-called beginner's distro than Ubuntu is. Sometimes you get to a point where you just wanna choose the tool that lets you get things done as quickly and as easily as possible, doesn't matter if it's a beginner's distro or not.
Even Linus Torvalds says he uses mint. He said, when asked what his opinion on debian was, approximately quoting, that he's not talented at maintaining a system, that it's not 1:1 with being a kernel developer, and he prefers a system that just works and he can install and forget about.

Of course I don't like that being a debian user who doesn't see what is so hard about keeping debian running... for the most part I set it and forget it too but to each his own.
Much opinionated.
Some abrasive.
No systemd.
Wow.

pcdoctor01
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#74 Post by pcdoctor01 »

I don't have any problems with Ubuntu. I found out about Ubuntu first. I'd rather install Ubuntu that Windows that's for sure.

somebodyelse
Posts: 231
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#75 Post by somebodyelse »

runfrodorun wrote:Even Linus Torvalds says he uses mint.
He uses Fedora, no?

On another note, people confuse ease of use with ambivalence regarding software freedom. Linux Mint is not easier to user than default Debian with Gnome. It is however more ambivalent about including flash and codecs etc.

Speaking of which, here's a boiler plate for Debian/Fedora "new user guides" in the "who gives a **** about software freedom" age:
"Step 1. Link to repo maintained by nebulous third party, forked from other shadowy third party repo.
Step 2. Install Flash, ms-corefonts, codecs and buckets of other stuff you don't actually need, including Chrome, Dropbox and Skype.
Step 3. Feel relieved that you now have a workable system.
Step 4. Get pwned by Flash exploit.
Step 5. Scratch your head and wonder how you got hacked on Linux."

Feel free to use this on your own blog/site.

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@zephyr
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#76 Post by @zephyr »

Something is happening to ubuntu, according to ratings on Distrowatch, Debian has moved to 2nd place as now ubuntu is 3rd with a 100 point spread in a few weeks or so. Rapid drop suggest something catastrophic and the cause could be the recent leadership demotions, lame attempts of fixing or not attempting to fix some very easy correctable problems, while other problems run a little deeper. Needless to say they might have broken themselves or having trouble with systemd. They could just un-buntu and be Debian easily. Maybe they all left, dropped the ball over summer vacation. Who knows?
ZephyrLinux

Randicus
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#77 Post by Randicus »

DistroWatch's rating simply counts the number of people who click on the links to the OSes DistroWatch keeps track of. They have no relation to the popularity of OSes. A drop of one place on those meaningless rankings is a rapid drop? And catastrophic? Get a grip on reality. :roll:

mittgreen
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#78 Post by mittgreen »

Randicus wrote:DistroWatch's rating simply counts the number of people who click on the links to the OSes DistroWatch keeps track of. They have no relation to the popularity of OSes. A drop of one place on those meaningless rankings is a rapid drop? And catastrophic? Get a grip on reality. :roll:
Anyway, I guess there is some sort of correlation between their ratings and a distribution popularity.

somebodyelse
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#79 Post by somebodyelse »

http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity

Bearing in mind that some distributions set Fireweasel to a distro homepage, I would take Distrowatch rankings purely as a bit of fun. Also, we see that Linux Mint is number one. However, if you could discount LMDE from Linux Mint's hits and then include under Ubuntu all the other little 'buntus, you would probably see them at about the same numbers.

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@zephyr
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Re: How do Debianites feel about Ubuntu?

#80 Post by @zephyr »

Catastrophic would be quite correct if you are a buntard, or even a closet buntard. That is reality. Even for those who are in denial.
ZephyrLinux

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