Jessie and Debians future.

[weedeater64]

So Debian is full on systemd now?

I have not installed Jessie yet, but saw on another forum that sysvinit is gone now?

So, what is wrong with sysvinit?

What is wrong with systemd?

Is this the future of Debian?

[Head_on_a_Stick]

I have not installed Jessie yet, but saw on another forum that sysvinit is gone now?

No, you can use SysVinit if you want:

Code: Select all

# apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim systemd-sysv-

https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianU ... _Jessie.3F

[stevepusser]

Yeah, looks like we're going to use the sysvinit shim on MX 15 instead of systemd. Any packages we roll will still be systemd compatible, though. The main reason is the xfce4-4.12 desktop takes 180 MB memory using systemd, about 120 MB on sysvinit (32-bit) Systemd does boot faster, though.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

Is this the future of Debian?

Also, kernel 4.0 introduced live kernel patching thus making rebooting even less necessary than before

[keithpeter]

I think the 'future of Debian' is just fine. As mentioned above Debian is preserving choice at least in the current stable release. There are of course limits to what a distribution can do - you are essentially packaging what upstream projects push out. The Debian ecosystem is sufficiently rich that it can support a variety of 'remixes' or 'spins' (that use customised installers and a small repository of their own but pull some packages from the Debian binary repositories) as well as 'forks' (with completely recompiled packages) but still using the Debian package management tools.

Food for thought: Debian is the *only* distribution I know of where you can download 3 DVD images that contain the bulk of the commonly used software in the main repository. You can then do an installation and intall a reasonable range of software entirely off-line. You can update every 6 weeks or so using an update ISO image. Try that with Fedora or Opensuse, or come to that with Ubuntu! Very handy if you are off-grid or have very expensive Internet access. Posting a DVD does not cost much.

[Sarge-in-charge]

So Debian is full on systemd now?

Debian is a RedHat clone now. TIFIFY.

My next servers are going to be CentOS, because RedHat is the testbed for systemd, and as a sysadmin I want ZERO surprises.

[Linadian]

You got the name in the thread title wrong, it's now known as 'Debhat', or 'Redbuntian'.

[golinux]

D-E-V-U-A-M
"Software freedom, your way."

projects

maillist

irclogs of freenode #devuan

[tomazzi]

hmm...

Reconstructing systemd interfaces in another project is a really time-consuming task - so in the mean time, I've made some test with GNU's dmd - and it looks & works just fantastic!
I must say, that it's several times smaller and simpler than systemd, while ofering essentialy the same (or very similar at least) functionality.
So in a consequence, I've started to wonder: how was it possible that systemd have won? Apparently noone in the TC have seen/tested the dmd.

I'm strongly considering to turn my project into a dmd-to-systemd shim...

Regards.

[somebodyelse]

Debian is just fine. Stop stirring.

Windows is the new Windows, just as it's always been.

[Linadian]

Debian is just fine. Stop stirring.

In other words, "drink the kool-aid, be a slave to your corporate masters". What are you smoking? Systemd is a cancer eating the whole Linux ecosystem from the inside out. See what you did? You made me quote Steve Ballmer, the crazy 'The Hills Have Eyes' monkey boy.

[edbarx]

To Linadian: From where did you get that photo?

[Linadian]

To Linadian: From where did you get that photo?

http://www.businessinsider.co.id/bigges ... t-2014-11/

Or direct link to the pic...
https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/ ... g?maxX=600

[somebodyelse]

drink the kool-aid, be a slave to your corporate masters

Nope. But provide evidence to back up your claims. Systemd does not make Debian Windows-like. It's used in Arch Linux too. Is Arch Windows-like? It's more in-keeping with Microsoft's past behaviour to destroy Debian's reputation from within via insinuations.

[alansmithee]

Reconstructing systemd interfaces in another project is a really time-consuming task - so in the mean time, I've made some test with GNU's dmd - and it looks & works just fantastic!

If you've done any write-ups (blogging, mailing lists, etc) or made public any of your DMD work, I would be interested in studying it. I also find DMD to be very well designed but have not really seen too much about its use outside of the GUIX project (which does not particularly interest me).

[spacemage]

Systemd does not make Debian Windows-like. It's used in Arch Linux too. Is Arch Windows-like? It's more in-keeping with Microsoft's past behaviour to destroy Debian's reputation from within via insinuations.

I just wanted to say, because I've seen this argument several times lately, that it is a terrible argument. Why would Microsoft attempt to destroy Debian's reputation by insinuating that it is now, "like Windows"? Doesn't that also destroy Windows' reputation in the process? It certainly isn't going to turn any more people towards using Windows. So far systemd seems to turn some to RedHat based distros, like Sarge up there, or more to Devuan, Gentoo, Slackware, or BSD.

Though I'm not technically adept enough to claim to understand systemd's inner workings, I've just been following this whole debacle for a little while, and as far as I've seen, nobody is really touting systemd as a brilliantly designed piece of software (besides Poettering himself.) Most of what I see are people saying that it's badly designed software, versus people who say it just works, and don't read much farther into it.

I'm not a software developer, but I do care that the software I use is designed with certain principles in mind. From what I can tell, systemd is software designed in a Windows-esque style. A well funded group of developers, producing a huge amount of code, to handle a lot of different processes, and continuously integrating more features and deepening dependencies. And this is precisely what I left Windows to get away from.

I'm not saying that systemd is some kind of big scary deal. It's free software, anyone who cares can attempt to audit the code, and it has it's advantages, it makes some things easier. But I'm not using Debian because it's easier. I could have stuck with Windows and never learned a damn thing about kernels or init systems, but I like doing the work to make things work. I like having more freedom and control over the tools that I use. And I like to know exactly what software I'm putting into my system, and minimizing the amount of software with features that I don't need, using resources on jobs that I don't actually need it to do (even if I'm not quite at the level to thoroughly be able to do that yet.)

I understand why some major distros have switched to systemd, it's simply a matter of maintaining support for popular software that is now dependent on it, and making things convenient for their end users. It's fine to try to attract more people over from Windows with an OS that makes things as simple as they have come to expect it to be, but I support people finding alternatives to systemd, because I don't want our operating systems becoming locked into a dependency on this one software, and I believe that someone can still design better software to serve the same function.

[Linadian]

drink the kool-aid, be a slave to your corporate masters

Nope. But provide evidence to back up your claims. Systemd does not make Debian Windows-like. It's used in Arch Linux too. Is Arch Windows-like? It's more in-keeping with Microsoft's past behaviour to destroy Debian's reputation from within via insinuations.

Oh gawd, another one, *sigh*. Here's a switch, why don't you prove it DOESN'T make Debian "Windows-like". FYI sheeple, programs and apps are already starting to require systemd be PRE installed (or drag it in as a dependency), that, my proprietary software b1+c#, is Windows-like. Systemd is NOT the operating system, it's supposed to be a process handler, not dictate what you can and cannot install on your system. So you are right in one way, ANY distro that chooses to let this kernel cancer piggyback and suck it dry like the Borg, is in essence, the same as DEBHAT, "Windows-like". I shouldn't have to explain this, YOU should have already read about this, I'm sick an tired of lazy trolls that haven't even done their homework. %#$k off idiot, get out of my face.

Most likely this will get moved to some stupid other thread because the mods here like to hide this dirty secret, they think somebody of any salt may actually come to this sad forum and read it.

Edit: I'm guessing if you had to ask such a stupid question in the first place, you don't understand under the hood software or software politics and corporate anti-trust monopolistic manipulative behaviour. Learn how to use a search engine, don't use Google, they give all your surfing data to the NSA.

[tomazzi]

If you've done any write-ups (blogging, mailing lists, etc) or made public any of your DMD work, I would be interested in studying it. I also find DMD to be very well designed but have not really seen too much about its use outside of the GUIX project (which does not particularly interest me).

I don't have time for blogging (well, I'm writting very short messages to announce changes in my projects, but that doesn't count).
Also, I don't have any account on Twitter, G+ or Facebook...
I've made few tests with dmd in a VM, just to learn how dmd works in practice (after reviewing its code).

I have found some fundamental bugs in a systemd code, which are making it practically unusable for me. In fact, I like most of the ideas behind systemd - but I just can't accept it's code. Unfortunately rising number of daemons is using systemd, so the only way to bypass it is to provide a "replacement" - which must offer a compatible interface.

The key problem with systemd is that the developers are ignoring obvious bugs - like calling SIGSEGV handler on a main program stack, what is at best "bad paractice".
My base assertion is to write extremely safe init system code, as it is only possible (and not neccessarily the fastest). For this reason, I've created a library, which I'm testing and improving for few months: libcxc - for proper handling of signals and all other exceptional situations - which are unfortunately mostly ignored in systemd, especially in non-debug builds (where many/most of assertions checks are removed).
Init system creates the most critical process in a whole system - so it must be not only robust, but foremost "indestructible", even by its own critical faults. (and systemd is known to fail/segfault from time to time, in strange situations...)

Regards.

[Roel63]

Oh gawd, another one, *sigh*. Here's a switch, why don't you prove it DOESN'T make Debian "Windows-like". FYI sheeple, programs and apps are already starting to require systemd be PRE installed (or drag it in as a dependency), that, my proprietary software b1+c#, is Windows-like. Systemd is NOT the operating system, it's supposed to be a process handler, not dictate what you can and cannot install on your system. So you are right in one way, ANY distro that chooses to let this kernel cancer piggyback and suck it dry like the Borg, is in essence, the same as DEBHAT, "Windows-like". I shouldn't have to explain this, YOU should have already read about this, I'm sick an tired of lazy trolls that haven't even done their homework. %#$k off idiot, get out of my face.

Most likely this will get moved to some stupid other thread because the mods here like to hide this dirty secret, they think somebody of any salt may actually come to this sad forum and read it.

Edit: I'm guessing if you had to ask such a stupid question in the first place, you don't understand under the hood software or software politics and corporate anti-trust monopolistic manipulative behaviour. Learn how to use a search engine, don't use Google, they give all your surfing data to the NSA.

Funny that you use the word "behaviour" in a post that doesn't show even a little glimpse of behaviour.

[somebodyelse]

@Spacemage, I don't suspect Microsoft of wanting to make Debian Windows' like. I do think they want to push developer mindshare to a distribution like SUSE, which is the top-billed Linux offering on Azure and which is owned by a Microsoft-friendly company and still has participation from the consortium that formerly owned it, which is based in Seattle and bought Novell as part of Microsoft's "don't let VMware buy it" strategy. The advantage for Microsoft is that each touch point with SUSE keeps the customer in a conversation that can include the selling of Microsoft products/services which the current owners of SUSE also sell. If the same customers go to Red Hat or Ubuntu, they're no longer in touch with Microsoft.

So why Debian? Because admins/developers like and trust it. Even if they aren't buying their company's cloud services themselves, they are in a position to influence purchasing managers' decisions. "Don't go with Red Hat. It's run the by the US military and NSA and stuff. Don't use Ubuntu, it's buggy and bloated. Don't use Debian, the co-maintainer of a marginal musical package works for Microsoft." "Ok, so what's left?" "Well, there's SUSE. It has a smiley-faced lizard and a corporate slogan that tells you to have fun. No one that ever told you to have fun was ever a bad person."

If you don't like systemd, work on Devuan but a decision was taken democratically within the Debian project. End of issue.

We know there is anti-Debian propaganda out there. There is an article for example called "Julian Assange says Debian is owned by the NSA". Yet when you take the time to watch Assange's speech, it is clear he is talking about any distribution that includes binaries with dependencies. And he isn't talking about them being owned/pwned by the NSA. He's saying that any one of those dependencies could be the weakest link and only one needs to be compromised by the NSA. Sadly, there are probably people out there who believe this article makes the case that Debian is owned by the NSA. It doesn't but it does indicate that someone is working hard to destroy Debian's reputation.