Jessie and Debians future.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

Let's see now who else is honest here, who else thinks they know crap?

In technical terms, I don't know crap either

I only like systemd 'cos I understand how to use it.

I am a (relative) newcomer to GNU/Linux and I learned how to manipulate the init system whilst using Arch.

SysVinit confuses the crap outta me...

[Randicus]

I am, so far, the only one who came out and said "hey guys, I know I don't know, so I won't take sides". For that I have been, on occasions, like you are doing know, told that I am disqualified from the debate.

Who said anything about not being qualified? I suggested more knowledge would allow you to better take part by being able to engage both sides, instead of only "calling out" one side. But apparently, on this board common sense suggestions are too close to being personal attacks.

[Randicus]

SysVinit confuses the crap outta me...

But systemd does not?

[Head_on_a_Stick]

SysVinit confuses the crap outta me...

But systemd does not?

No, it's all I know

[dasein]

I know you don't see it, but to my eye, many (perhaps most) of your arguments rest upon straw men and false dichotomies.

Oh boy really? Then by all means show me please because if I don't see them and they are there, I definitely want to change that.

Said discussion is better left to PM, IMO. So check your inbox.

[dasein]

I only like systemd 'cos I understand how to use it.

And your willingness to share that hard-won expertise is an exceptional contribution to this community. Thank you.

[mor]

Who said anything about not being qualified? I suggested more knowledge would allow you to better take part by being able to engage both sides, instead of only "calling out" one side. But apparently, on this board common sense suggestions are too close to being personal attacks.

Your argument was that I was being unfair in only challenging the non technical side of the argument, and also that if I wanted to take part into the debate I should educate myself at least to some basic level.
You didn't make an explicit claim of disqualification from the debate, but you can't deny that the message you wanted to send was a little different that the pretty obvious advice that by learning more one could also engage the technical side of the debate (duh!).

Let's say I read "too much" in your words and call it a day ok.

Beside that, do you have any comment in regard to the larger point of this debate being non technical as much as or even more than it is technical?

Said discussion is better left to PM, IMO. So check your inbox.

You're right.

Bye

[weedeater64]

It's not Debian who are dictating this necessity, they are merely providing a solution for users who do not feel systemd is appropriate for their set ups.

Wrong.

Debian is dictating systemd precisely because they choose to include the garbage that makes it a dependency and not giving the user a choice.

Gnome is not necessary to a functioning Debian. Neither is anything else that has the svchost.exe,... er systemd.exe

[Head_on_a_Stick]

It's not Debian who are dictating this necessity, they are merely providing a solution for users who do not feel systemd is appropriate for their set ups.

Wrong.

Debian is dictating systemd precisely because they choose to include the garbage that makes it a dependency and not giving the user a choice.

Gnome is not necessary to a functioning Debian. Neither is anything else that has the svchost.exe,... er systemd.exe

Please *read* what I have posted -- I was talking about systemd-shim

That package is exactly what gives the user the *choice* of init systems in Debian...

Read this:
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianU ... _Jessie.3F

[GarryRicketson]

For some reason that is the hardest thing people seem to understand, or perhaps don't want to understand,
Nobody is "forcing" anybody to use systemd.
I still use Wheezy, all though it has a "systmd" folder, that is not used. I also use Debian 8, jessie, with systemd,
but I could "disable that" and use "SysVinit", if I choose to, or just keep using Wheezy.
Which is better ? I don't know, they both work. But one thing is clear, nobody is forcing me to use systemd.

[MALsPa]

But one thing is clear, nobody is forcing me to use systemd.

For that matter, nobody's being forced to use Linux.

[GarryRicketson]

+1

[weedeater64]

Please *read* what I have posted -- I was talking about systemd-shim

That package is exactly what gives the user the *choice* of init systems in Debian...

Read this:
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianU ... _Jessie.3F

But it doesn't. There is no opt out, if you use Debian you are forced to use systemd.

Don't believe it?

Go install a standard Debian, install your shim if you want, then install gnome and see what happens.

systemd will crap all over you.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

systemd will crap all over you.

Are you deluded?

We are talking about PID1, not packages on the system that are *not being used*

I have run my systems (both sid & jessie) several times with SysVinit running as PID1.

If you run this command:

Code: Select all

# apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim systemd-sysv-

Your Debian system will be *incapable* of booting with systemd as PID1 regardless of whether it is present on the hard drive or not.

Check with:

Code: Select all

ls -l /sbin/init

[GarryRicketson]

There is no opt out, if you use Debian you are forced to use systemd

I am using Debian, without systemd, so that is completely not true.
I also have and use Debian 8 with systemd, there are many versions of Debian, not all of them have systemd.

[Randicus]

Beside that, do you have any comment in regard to the larger point of this debate being non technical as much as or even more than it is technical?

Of course a big part is non-technical, because systemd is a restructuring of the system away from the design philosophy it was built upon. There will naturally be a chasm of disagreement between those who like the new philosophy and those who do not. (I am among the latter.)

Go install a standard Debian, install your shim if you want, then install gnome and see what happens.

systemd will crap all over you.

If one does not want systemd infecting one's computer, why would that person want to install a GUI that goes out of its way to be systemd-"friendly"?

[Linadian]

There is no opt out, if you use Debian you are forced to use systemd

I am using Debian, without systemd, so that is completely not true.

Ooo boy, that is not 100% accurate either, please prove to us there is ABSOLUTELY not a trace of ANY systemd files or shims or whatever on that system. No logind, etc. This is why Devuan was formed, to completely rid Debian of ANY trace of systemd. Nice try though, no cigar, sorry.

[keithpeter]

There is no opt out, if you use Debian you are forced to use systemd

I am using Debian, without systemd, so that is completely not true.

Ooo boy, that is not 100% accurate either, please prove to us there is ABSOLUTELY not a trace of ANY systemd files or shims or whatever on that system. No logind, etc. This is why Devuan was formed, to completely rid Debian of ANY trace of systemd. Nice try though, no cigar, sorry.

Code: Select all

keith@moka:~$ cat /etc/issue
Debian GNU/Linux 8 \n \l

keith@moka:~$ dpkg -l *systemd* | grep ii
ii  libsystemd0:i386 215-17+deb8u1 i386         systemd utility library

(Please read the dependencies of libsystemd0 before replying)

https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libsystemd0

I need to update the page below, but it gives you the basic idea...

http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html

[somebodyelse]

Hmm. Didn't reply for a couple of days. Didn't miss anything. It's like Eastenders Not that I reply to Eastenders. That would be silly (not to mention crazy).

Here is an interesting blog article from two years ago from a Fedora project person. https://www.happyassassin.net/2013/11/2 ... n-systemd/

It seems that systemd is licensed under LGPL v2.1 rather than the GPL. However, the LGPL is a free software license https://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html so systemd remains free although I would be interested to hear from a legal expert how Lennart Poettering's copyright relates to the LGPL licensing in this case.

Do I care about systemd? No. But I think it's important to be 100% clear that Debian GNU/Linux continues to honour its free (as in freedom) software commitment even with systemd. There may well be problems/dangers with systemd but its mere inclusion in Debian should not be a call to arms or a reason to bully the project.

Note how Richard Stallman has not entered the debate.
Note how Linus has said he is not against systemd (although he is critical of the team and has voiced technical criticism of specific parts, he has made it clear that he is not against the project).

When these two giants of our little world decide to make the war against systemd a priority, I may become concerned that Debian now uses it as default. While they are not infallible and not our leaders, their technical and FOSS credentials are not in doubt.

Until then, I'm not going to listen to one-track minded former Debian users who can't see that parties thrown by Microsoft have nothing to do with Debian (they are more likely to be simply jumping on the bandwagon).

[Linadian]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^The die hard shill, minstrels will write songs about you, and play their flutes as the dance down the forest path, singing your praises.

You don't get corporate-ware creep and you never will.