Debian could be more user friendly!

[wishingwell]

From the start, I'm asking:
Why do I have the feeling that, whatever I may say, some people have already placed me in a specific immutable category?

I'll try to clarify some things first:

1. I do not propose the typical consumer culture (by "typical" I mean without ethical regards) in matters regarding FOSS or anything else in the world. I only state that some aspects that the consumer culture itself borrowed from some empathetic projects (aspects like: easy to understand instructions, friendliness of discussions, compassion for a less technical mind who still is genuinely interested to learn etc.) could be used by the FOSS as well. It would make the whole world a better place in the end, while having no disadvantages.

2. I am not expressing my preference for Windows/Apple/Android over Gnu/Linux. If they are user friendly, they definitely don't do that out of humanitarian reasons. But Gnu/Linux could definitely benefit from being more user friendly, and by "user friendly" I don't mean catering to the whims of every user who wants a different fruit in their jam/ice cream/whatever. But nobody would get hurt if those who know more would kindly show the newbies how to make their own flavor...

And since Gnu/Linux could sincerely be proven they don't have hidden interests, more users with the proper ethics will come and even help Gnu/Linux, each in their own way... Who would lose from this?

3. I really have no trouble using Ubuntu on a daily basis, so please do not judge me as you do with those criticizing Gnu/Linux itself. I think I have already shown my respect for Debian when I almost equated it with Gnu/Linux itself in my first post. My opinions are actually more directed at Debian rather than other Gnu/Linux distros. Why? Because I think Debian has a lot of potential to be a great safe haven in the full of egotistic wars software world. Unlike most other distros, Debian is capable of transcending petty rivalries and commercial focus, and lead the way towards making a both majestic and sensitive operating system...

4. Being a newbie to Gnu/Linux and Debian doesn't make me a stupid person. I would be grateful if you stop treating newbies as such. For everybody's sake.

You claim to be mature, experienced and wise, but I think the first requirement of all these higher human qualities is admitting one's self limitations and insignificance compared to the Big Unknown. Yes, you may have solved a few things, but that doesn't give you the right to treat others, who don't yet grasp all your special jargon, with contempt. You may still have other Higher Forces to thank for your accomplishments, so more modesty couldn't hurt you...

Yes, some newbies may be difficult to reach, but they may still be really interested in joining the community and maybe become developers. Not everyone learns to swim if you throw them in the middle of the ocean. Sometimes you may lose more by being inflexible and clinging to spartan pedagogy than you may realize. Oh, well, in the end it all comes down to how easily you can look in the mirror and live with yourselves...

....

No, one can't provide an easy OotB user experience while maintaining a core commitment to free software

It is not me, but the future who will prove you wrong. The not so distant future actually.

Each time you tackle a new problem, take notes; when you get the problem resolved, use those notes to write what you consider to be "crystal clear instructions" and share them with the world.

Similarly, if you feel that there's a need for better "coverage" on one or more topics here at FDN, then once again, the fix is obvious: "be the change you want to see."

There may be more arguments here, but I would only invoke this one:
There are many ways to help and contribute. I am a non-tech, I am trying to reach to something called the Human Conscience. You may have heard of it?...

But the subtlety is that while they would want their vision to be liked and adopted and praised, it is only if it is their vision, and not some adaptation to appeal to you or me or anyone else

An ivory tower approach? Imposing one's vision? Practicing, in a slightly different taste, the same "craft" that corporate giants are accused of? It is often just a small step from that to utter ruthlessness, don't you think?

The attitude is not one that cares about convenience ("I need to use Skype, want to play that game on wine etc."), rather about personal growth ("Hey, I fixed the WiFi problem, it only took me three weeks!"), the ideology is not about being cool and sophisticated ("What system are you on? Winblows? You fool, hey I'm on LINUX, I can't even get viruses!"), but rather engaged in the importance of software freedom ("I bought my new laptop giving up on many features and paying more but it all runs free software") and sharing of knowledge ("hey, I made a new script that does this" or "hey, I read your script, modified it to do that"), which is not to be confused with the mindless spoonfeeding of information ("Someone tell me how to install Flash!!!1!").

Convenience and personal growth need not be opposites. And, hey, elitism has many faces...

But I still choose to respect you, since you have potential for socratic self-reflection. Unlike the majority of your peers...

I have never had any trouble finding good clear documentation, on Debian, and have always recieved "helpful advice" , really or truely, on this forum, and also the other debian forum, and this!:

Weird argument. I also have no trouble running the marathon without stopping. I wonder why others can't do the same?... Gee, they are lazy!....

Go back to Ubuntu.

Thank you for sharing your story.

In fact I've set up a fair number of "user-friendly" desktop systems for use by family members, friends and colleagues and they have no problems using it the same way for months on end for typical desktop purposes.

You did that, but could they? Take any one of them at random and direct them, without instructions from you, only based on the websites documentation, to both Ubuntu and Debian. Which one of these distros do you think they would have more success in installing and using?

And this above paragraph is the essence of my post, for those who can't grasp it from multiple readings.

[spacemage]

I have never had any trouble finding good clear documentation, on Debian, and have always recieved "helpful advice" , really or truely, on this forum, and also the other debian forum, and this!:

Weird argument. I also have no trouble running the marathon without stopping. I wonder why others can't do the same?... Gee, they are lazy!....

This is a hilarious statement, in that you are essentially asking Debian to make the marathon shorter. You should remember that you don't have to run, you can just walk, and you'll get to the finish line eventually. Or go run a different race.

When people tell you to use Ubuntu, they aren't being elitist, or trying to put you down in any way. Ubuntu is a good Linux distro, though it doesn't suit the needs of certain people, it may be perfect for others. It may not be as dedicated to free software as some, but if you want to use Skype and Facebook, then neither are you. There are fully free, user-friendly Linux distros as well, but you have to understand that free software can't do everything. It won't have support for any proprietary utility you want to use. It might lack drivers for certain hardware. Maybe it will have everything and be as user-friendly as you expect sometime in the future, but it hasn't all been written yet.

Don't play the victim. Nobody is trying to put you down for being a newbie. We were all newbies once.

[kedaha]

In fact I've set up a fair number of "user-friendly" desktop systems for use by family members, friends and colleagues and they have no problems using it the same way for months on end for typical desktop purposes.

You did that, but could they? Take any one of them at random and direct them, without instructions from you, only based on the websites documentation, to both Ubuntu and Debian. Which one of these distros do you think they would have more success in installing and using?

If they had to do it themselves then Ubuntu, obviously, because it offers instant customisation and easy enabling of proprietary blobware unless they know someone who can install Debian for them. But as emariz put it so succinctly in an old topic:

There is a huge difference between using and administrating a computer, and these task are mostly unrelated. A competent user may never have to perform an administrative task, and a capable administrator may never be a competent user of everyday applications.
That being said, the installation of an operating system is clearly an administrative task. It involves complex concepts like file systems, disk partitioning and usage, device drivers and firmware, microprocessor architectures, package management, etc. Why a computer user should be be familiar with these concepts is beyond my comprehension. No matter how competent he is.

[uxbal]

I'm not a dev, nor a tech-savvy person. You can still use Debian. You have to make some adjustments (some people need to backtrack the install for their liking, some of us like to bloat it with l'art pour l'art bloat) but it's a universal operating system. And it is plug and play, for the most part. what i value is the social contract, philosophically. What I see as a problem, is people who are here for the philosophy, saying that's only one approach to comprehending Debian, then the techno-centrists saying only that matters. But in reality, what foss needs is more developers, and more consumers. Software doesn't exist for its own sake, otherwise people wouldn't engage in heavy political battles for foss. But how much will people want to make sacrifices is a whole other thing.

Anyway, i'm a noob, and for my usage i can run Debian super ok, i've learned to tinker with some config files, learned the really rough basics (i even had slackware up and running for a while), and well, I feel good using Debian. I can't develop, so I wear a Debian badge on a satchel and throw a few bucks towards it every now and then, and most of all, I enjoy using it.

Guys, just take it easy, and have fun. Minters, Ubuntuers, you'll have no problem here. If you like the philosophy, jump aboard. Noone is going to give you poop if you publish at least a decent thread about your problem. And everyone will be happy to solve it.

[somebodyelse]

Does Debian need more consumers? Consumers are useful when they provide money in exchange for what they consume. Other than that, they are quite useless and a drain on servers.

If like me you think that the world will be better for more people using free software and caring about software freedom, then there is a argument in favour of making Debian more enticing to non-technical people.

Otherwise, the only real concern is sustainability, which depends more on contributors (who create value) than on consumers (who consume it).

[GarryRicketson]

Once Debian is installed, and set up correctly, it is very "user friendly" and stable, but the problem is these people, that are used to windows, (windows users), to them "user friendly" means, Go to wal-mart, buy the computer with the most recent version of windows on it, take it home, plug it in, click the "face-book" button, and that is about it, they have no clue how to do anything more, when it stops working, or becomes out of date, they go back to wal-mart, and buy a new one, then guys like me, buy the "broken computer" at their "yard sale" , cheap, maybe $50.00, or $25, it is "broken", does not even work, often they even give it away.
That is why I love Debian, linux, etc. I can install a linux based system , completely getting rid of the "mal-ware", in the "broken computer". The computer is fixed, works well.
Where I live, there is a lot of poverty, it makes me so happy, when I can give a kid a laptop, that works good, it is something they or their parents could never afford. For kids , just learning, I install XUBUNTU, they love it, they can use the "wifi" , get on face book, down load movies, games, music, everything they would be doing if it was Windows. Plus, for the ones that are interested, they can start "exploreing", learning to install the programs they want, etc. The school has a good wifi connection, and the kids use it. The thing of it is too, these kids know nothing about "anti-viruses", and certainly can not afford to go out and buy the latest, MS-antiviruse malware, of course there are many "free anti virus" programs available, but those are only useful to someone that knows they need to keep them up-date, etc. Windows is very "USER UNFRIENDLY", if you don't constantly keep updateing the "avast", " "mal ware bytes", etc, and the computer is online, downloading who knows what from who know where, like the kids do,...well, a "windows" powered machine, does not last a month, . My son, has a laptop, I installed xubuntu, 5 years ago, and he downloads,all sorts of "garbage", at least that is what I call it, but it is the music, videos ,etc , he enjoys. It has not "crashed" or broken , for 5 years.
..recently though, when he saw, what my computer and desktop looks like using Debian, he wanted me to install Debian, I did, and he has no problem doing the same things he was doing with the xubuntu system, I installed with the GNOME desktop, that is what he likes, and is familiar with.
It seems to be very "user friendly" to him also, then their is my daughter, she is basically computer illiterate,but has no problem using Debian, or linux mint, or Ubuntu. There are many kids here in my pueblo, they all think linux is "user friendly", they love it, especially because, ok, some have a parent or family member, that can afford a new computer, but it came with "windows", and that is exactly what happens, after a month or so, it is "broken" overwhelmed with mal-ware,viruses,etc,..so they bring it to me, I explain, and show them what the differences are, I will/would NOT install any Windows mal ware, on any ones computer, even if they paid me, in most cases, they are willing to try linux,ubuntu, and are quite happy, a few, never learn, they want Windows, so they take the computer to the city,find a shop, and install windows, only to have the same thing occur a month or so later, "windows" breaks, it is unstable, mal-ware,.
the OP has it backwards, the title should be:
"" Windows could be more user friendly, like Debian"" ,... not in reverse , the way the OP puts it, it is like they are saying Debian should be more like Windows, God forbid, if it was even a little like windows, I would look for another OS,..I could go on, but I am tired,.guess that is all , for now.

[monara]

Go back to Ubuntu.

Hmm...how nice!

This type of people pushes newcomers away.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

Go back to Ubuntu.

Hmm...how nice!

This type of people pushes newcomers away.

Go back to Monara

[monara]

Go back to Ubuntu.

Hmm...how nice!

This type of people pushes newcomers away.

Go back to Monara

[Head_on_a_Stick]

[stuff]

Please stay on topic...

[monara]

[stuff]

Please stay on topic...

Are you saying, if Debian to be more user friendly, the users should check how Monara works?
Well, I believe they should try Monara out.

[millpond]

From the start, I'm asking:
Why do I have the feeling that, whatever I may say, some people have already placed me in a specific immutable category?

I'll try to clarify some things first:

1. I do not propose the typical consumer culture (by "typical" I mean without ethical regards) in matters regarding FOSS or anything else in the world. I only state that some aspects that the consumer culture itself borrowed from some empathetic projects (aspects like: easy to understand instructions, friendliness of discussions, compassion for a less technical mind who still is genuinely interested to learn etc.) could be used by the FOSS as well. It would make the whole world a better place in the end, while having no disadvantages.

2. I am not expressing my preference for Windows/Apple/Android over Gnu/Linux. If they are user friendly, they definitely don't do that out of humanitarian reasons. But Gnu/Linux could definitely benefit from being more user friendly, and by "user friendly" I don't mean catering to the whims of every user who wants a different fruit in their jam/ice cream/whatever. But nobody would get hurt if those who know more would kindly show the newbies how to make their own flavor...

And since Gnu/Linux could sincerely be proven they don't have hidden interests, more users with the proper ethics will come and even help Gnu/Linux, each in their own way... Who would lose from this?

3. I really have no trouble using Ubuntu on a daily basis, so please do not judge me as you do with those criticizing Gnu/Linux itself. I think I have already shown my respect for Debian when I almost equated it with Gnu/Linux itself in my first post. My opinions are actually more directed at Debian rather than other Gnu/Linux distros. Why? Because I think Debian has a lot of potential to be a great safe haven in the full of egotistic wars software world. Unlike most other distros, Debian is capable of transcending petty rivalries and commercial focus, and lead the way towards making a both majestic and sensitive operating system...

4. Being a newbie to Gnu/Linux and Debian doesn't make me a stupid person. I would be grateful if you stop treating newbies as such. For everybody's sake.

You have raised some very good points that I concur with, though technically not a 'new user (have used Linux on and off since kernel 0.96).
But perhaps a little background would help put things in perspective:
Linux was developed from Unix, which was an industrial and academic application. When the PC came along eventually it was ported to desktops, especialy as Linux, but the main userbase was still Academia and Industry. It was never meant to be a consumer software, and the mindset of its progenitors reflects this.
The deliberately obscurantist naming conventions reflect a somewhat elitist ethos of programmers/hackers that is reminiscent of a medieval alchemists guild.

In the FOSS world software is economically only a byproduct. Its *support* that pays the bills, so there is an unspoken, if unconscious motivation among the core culture to be a litle vague or difficult about design and documentation. For example a typical CPAN Perl module is explained for multiple paragraphs in pure technogibberish, where three lines of example code would more than make clear its purpose and use. Documentation is typically written as a pHd thesis.

But, paradoxically, it is FOSS that represents the last real hope of freedom and privacy as it is the the desktop that is the last frontier in a neoliberal 'post-industrial' society hell bent on returning to feudal social darwinism. Trade pacts have ensured that Corporate Rule trumps human rights, and that means the criminalization of reverse engineering on a planetary scale. Open Source is our only hope of maintaining control over our connections to the Matrix\Net.

Linux has become a symbol of the efficacy of social co-operation - but it is intermixed with a deeply divisive corporate culture. It is front and center at the core of some of the worlds largest corporations and governments. CERN found God on Linux machines.

A few years ago driven by the efforts of Canonical (which apparently had full intentions of monetizing its efforts), Linux was redesigned to be more 'user fiendly' for the consumer. Out of the box it became as simple to use as Windows or a Mac (providing the consumer had readily recognized hardware components). For most purposes, at least.

M$ is on a course to destroy the desktop and take everyone into its rented cloud resulting in smaller, sleeker, faster laptops that are really 'thin=clients': terminals. Apple has pretty much abandoned the desktop in favor of gadgets and underpowered toys that try to deny you access to true productivity. You are only supposed to buy, not think. Google has no real interest in desktop technology.

So Linux is really the only place left where you can still be master of your machine, to the point of saying - What irks me: Dies. And mean it. Hopefully.
For example: systemd irks me. I havent been able to kill it yet, but I have it in a coma.

Bash and Heartbeat have proven we have been violated, as we like to forget that the Net itself was developed by DARPA and that NSA spooks and lackeys still infest governing committees. Academics like grants.

While Linux and FOSS is indeed an ideal place for idealism it needs to be realized that the cyberculture is very multicultural. You have the elitist culture of programmers and 'hackers' who do not want the unwashed masses in their domain. You have vulture capitalists and commercial software people trying to turn Linux into Windows and Macs, chomping at the heels of the GPL, and trying their best to destroy it. You have the Third World and BRICS trying to give their peoples an affordable means of education and technology. And you have Debian, manning the gates of Constantinople in 1453 watching the barbarians gather at its gates. And that includes the general population who do not give a tinkers damn about technology, or its aspects on freedom, and only want anything that will provide them free porn, and access to the Kardassians on Facebook.

For those people, Linux IS actually easy to use. Install Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, and a P2p client (utorrent works fine), and its likely they will never have any problems.

Its when they have driver issues, or want to get under the cover to *change* things that they get gobsmacked.

Especially from the command line server and developer folk who have neither interest nor patience with common complaints about installing game software, and getting social networking to function. And here of all places, as Debian has long been considered the habitat of the Ascended Masters.

People new to Linux come here and get hollered at for not specifying enough information about a problem, when they might not even know what to look for. Or what to call it. Not everyone has even a clue as to what a Window Manager even is. And think X means skinflicks.

The docs for some basic utils like apt apps can be downright deplorable, or even out of date. For one package I needed to check the doc files in its *source* file to even find out how to set it up.

And yet sometimes the help, especially on the net can be so extraordinarily detailed and complex for what amounts to basic file management, that it can take 20 minutes to do from the command line what I can do in 30 seconds with a file manager like midnight commander.

Even well maintained apps, if they have web pages often give little clue as to what the apps do, and even less on how to demonstrate their practical use.

Debian is not to blame, as it is the Linux culture itself which is often slipshod compared to the polished. promoted, and aesthetically pleasing commercial software typically found on the Win platforms. Even when its total garbage.
Is Ubuntu an alternative to Debian? No. It has deliberately forked its file system to be incompatible with Debian, while being able for feed off its repositories.
It is a parasite that is fundamentally opposed to the ideals that Debian stands for. And Debian would violate its own ideals if it tried to block itself from being exploited.

Redhat is well, Redhat. Mandriva is a beautiful release, but its a commercial venture that tries to sell you basic necessities like drivers.

Slackware/Arch is like the Ground of Being. Where it all really started. Its pure, and fairly unadulterated, on a classic filesystem, but, hells bells, I havent got time to compile or individually hunt down tens of thousands of packages. Synaptic is a godsend (most of the time). In fact its Debians App Store. Only no charge.

Things are unlikely to change for the better, unless there is a critical mass of public support, and there is no chance of that unless things change for the better.
That extra leverage is needed for hardware driver support, as even I myself have had to boot to Win for printing. Plus its needed for another thing, less obvious.
Having been involved with sofware development, though not a programmer, I have seen first hand how easily motivation can be quenched, when an exceptional and unique program is offered for free, and few if any express interest. After a while maintaining it became drudgery. This is much less likely to happen with a larger user base, and could well motivate programmers to revisit projects and write real docs. We cannot expect Debian to do this.

Indeed, the question of flavor is important. I am trying to divest myself of the mint flavor, with just one file left of it, and unsure of the consequences of its removal. Ideally Debian would sponsor such flavors but with intermixable and totally compatible versions with the main archives. They indeed may have done it at one time, and called them 'spins'. As well as clearly categorize server specific software, daemons, and vendor specific items in its category tree.

[somebodyelse]

Some people come to Linux and make demands of a project as if they were its customers. Debian owes you nothing. It is, broadly speaking, the sum total of the aspirations and contributions of the people involved in the project. If you would like Debian to have more of x, y or z, join the project and make it happen. Think new users need a certain kind of tutorial or whatever? Write it. Etc.

[hudson]

hot tip...google "some cryptic package I don't understand" + site:archlinux.org
...generally solves the problem for me

want to love Linux? try browsing through something like this http://cm.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/bswv7.html

it's all pretty simple if you adopt the right mindset...just editing lots of text files...what could be easier?

[hudson]

I would like to add Debian requires way too much configuration. But it is not really Debian's fault. It's more those goons who designed gtk2 and 3 (geez...3k lines of css) plus the fact that every package wants to configure their own fonts, etc, etc. There should be ONE database of all possible configurations...for example "my sans fonts are x" and my "serif fonts are y"...not days and days (going on weeks) searching through dot file after dot file...

[millpond]

Some people come to Linux and make demands of a project as if they were its customers. Debian owes you nothing. It is, broadly speaking, the sum total of the aspirations and contributions of the people involved in the project. If you would like Debian to have more of x, y or z, join the project and make it happen. Think new users need a certain kind of tutorial or whatever? Write it. Etc.

You are right.

But in a way that is the problem.

But... the average person has no idea who Stallman is, nor the sociorevolutionary aspects of his message.
The idea of a community project to ensure freedom of *communications itself* is something not widelely advertized on Facebook.

We can certainly say: Its *their* responsibility, and they can go straight to hell if they dont care.
But in a world with TISA looming over our shoulders, the *real problem* is that they are likely to drag us to hell, kicking and screaming, with them.

[hudson]

I think the problem is that Debian is such a massive undertaking...packaging 40,000 open source projects. I get the sense that Debian derives power from and serves two markets...being a rock solid distro for the server market and being a base for all the derivatives.

As such, to come to Debian and say "why isn't this more user friendly" is like going to the gigantic research university with 40,000 students and say "why don't my professors care about me". Professors there care about three things...graduate students (to do their work), research grants, and their tenure.

Maybe that's another way of saying if you want more caring feelings, a smaller distro is a better place to start. A smaller disto won't have the power base Debian does nor the demands placed on it. So, to develop their niche, they need to customize things and make it all very user friendly.

Just my 2 cents

[alan stone]

I think Debian and any other distro/os that claims they respect the individual's freedom should show more understanding and compassion for newcomers, for the real persons, not just for abstract ideals. They should provide unified, clear, unambiguous documentation, and truly helpful advices. They should promote FOSS use in a friendly manner, not a "holier than thou" one. Yes, that is why Windows, Apple and Android catch the majority. The majority wants ease of use and user friendliness. Couldn't Debian offer that? Better question: Would it somehow be wrong for Debian to offer that?
...
The crux is: Gnu/Linux in general should find a way of being more user friendly

When caught... you're not free.

So, as (unless I'm mistaken) you're pro-freedom, why should the Debian or GNU/Linux community do what you think is necessary to catch the majority?

And who's more pro-freedom: somebody telling other people what they should do to catch people, or people promoting the 'abstract ideal' of freedom?

Wishing you well... with understanding and compassion.

[mzsade]

I have been using Ubuntu/LinuxMint for over seven years, recently added Debian Jessie to my HDD and have been using it for just over a month now without any problems or having to refer to any manuals, wouldn't even know what to make of them if i had to. I have scarcely an inkling of bash commands and i believe if i can find it a breeze so would a trained chimp. What exactly do you mean by "user-friendly". If it got any more "user-friendly" it'd would serving you breakfast in bed.

[millpond]

I have been using Ubuntu/LinuxMint for over seven years, recently added Debian Jessie to my HDD and have been using it for just over a month now without any problems or having to refer to any manuals, wouldn't even know what to make of them if i had to. I have scarcely an inkling of bash commands and i believe if i can find it a breeze so would a trained chimp. What exactly do you mean by "user-friendly". If it got any more "user-friendly" it'd would serving you breakfast in bed.

Linux, out of the box, if it works, is as easy to use as any other OS - probably easier.

Its when it *doesnt* work that the proverbial merde hits the fan.

M$ has its 'Knowledge Base' which covers the majority of its system errors. And often the errors have codes which make lookup easier. Google is also very useful, as some of the basics does not really change between versions.

Unix/Linux was from the start an institutional/corporate/academic system designed to be managed by an hieratic class of scribes called IT programmers. The system was designed to only be open and comprehensible to that class, and as obfuscating and complex as possible to the unwashed masses. The man pages are a case in point. The naming conventions are another. Not meant to be *cute* but to be inscrutable.

Linux does have exhaustive documentation, but it is constantly being rendered obsolete by changes to the fundamental basics of the system such as the start up processes, so that following classic instructions from texts or google, unless the latest, and for your *specific distribution* can trash your system, if you attempt to go under the hood if there is a problem.

In win, the solutions are usually simple, or non-existant. A missing file? Replace it. Usually with google search. Else reinstall.

With Linux that missing file can be staring you in the face. At exactly the spot where the system says it is not.
Sometimes it might give you a clue as to why it cant find it.
But usually not.
Googling may or may not help, especially if you forget to look at the date of the answers (or the distribution)- you can spend half a day before you find the *right* answer.

Overall, I spent *days* trying to get gnome-commander to see my network. Lots of pages of similar problems with varying answrs. None of which worked.
Turns out Debian changed Samba versions in Jessie and it *will not* work.

For some of us, this could all be a challenge. Typically I have patience. Its a puzzle to solve.
But not all are so motivated.
When beginners have beginner questions they are generally treated to ritual abuse, for not knowing the language and the culture.
Like RTFM.
The average user has little interest in computer science. Linux is supposed to solve problems, not create them!
Debian as the backbone of one of the three main forks (debian, redhat,slackware) is not really responsible for turning users off to Linux in general, or Debian in particular - with the single exception of the shotgun blast to the head called systemd. Most of the responsibility in fact lies in the hands of the people who create the software for it (not package it). Alot of the apps are positively primitive by today's standards. Often with nearly nil documentation, docs, or even on their websites, any clue as to what the bloody thing *does* (at least in english, or other known tongue).

That said, Linux *is* changing, and for the better. Originally you had to configure your own video card (and risk damaging it with a typo), and even compile your own kernels.

Some apps even have 'wizards' to guide you through configuration.

And hells bells, gimp now even has a toolbar!