Scheduled Maintenance: We are aware of an issue with Google, AOL, and Yahoo services as email providers which are blocking new registrations. We are trying to fix the issue and we have several internal and external support tickets in process to resolve the issue. Please see: viewtopic.php?t=158230

 

 

 

Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!
Message
Author
User avatar
mor
Posts: 970
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#46 Post by mor »

You know Ed, I'm getting really tired of your act. Really.

You can't just say crap and pretend like whoever argues against it is either invisible or only deserves a nonsensical dodgy answer.
This is not a matter of disagreeing over some ephemeral aspect of the systemd controversy, like, from the top of my head, whether developing it in the first place was necessary or not (I don't care, just for the record).

The disagreement we are having is about the meaning of what Steve said, which you are missing completely and you can't just say "agree to disagree".
The words are there, you can't just shrug and get away with "easy to say it".

Steve has yet to pronounce himself and given how this is turning out he may even choose to never do it, but the crucial thing is that you can't simply go around and make statements without standing by those statements when someone challenges them (something you did often, especially lately).

And it is not a trivial point the one I'm trying to make, because it is not really just about Steve's point itself, it is rather a much more important matter of fair debate.
As humans we make statements and we challenge statements, either stand by your statements or don't make them, or just accept to be called… I don't know, a wimp or something.

Meh. :?

User avatar
Linadian
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#47 Post by Linadian »

I see where I went wrong, this was about Goggle's spyware sneaking under the noses of Debian devs, I simply mentiioned systemd because it is potentially a huge attack surface, and if Goggle's garbage can sneak past Debian's devs, then what's stopping any unwanted $#1+ in systemd getting past, is anybody actually pouring over the over HALF A MILLION lines of code? Or are they just getting it compatible with Debian, then just ship it out the door the way it is? These aren't paranoid tinfoil questions, they are real concerns, especially if I was an IT pro using Debian on multiple MISSION CRITICAL machines. I won't even use it on my home machine, nevermind a commercial machine.

My bad for mentioning the saviour of Linux, the almighty and beyond reproach systemd, all hail Lennart, now bow to your God and be grateful he likes to write barnacle-ware (PulseAudio is also barnacle-ware, I don't use it either). :P :lol:

I once thought Linux and FOSS people were outside the box thinkers, not easily brainwashed or fooled, stick it to the man kind of people, boy was I wrong, they are just as easily brainwashed and turned in to cult zombies just as quick as less tech savvy people.

To whoever said I shouldn't be in here bashing Debhat and its weaknesses, you're right, I run a far better distro, I'll just let you suckers find out things on your own, the hard way, then I'll whiz my pants laughing. See ya. :roll:
Linux Registered User 533946

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#48 Post by edbarx »

mor, my dear forum 'brother', you take the world too seriously, and life is too short to waste it worrying. I learnt my lesson not to take the world too seriously, but unfortunately, I learnt to avoid most of my vain worrying too late in my life, as I am now almost fifty years old, to be precise, forty eight years old.

mor, learn to ignore naughty posts as that will let you live happier.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
Linadian
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#49 Post by Linadian »

Although this thread has turned in to a "vee vill defendt zyztemdee aht ennee kosst!" fest, these are a few interesting reads, read the 4th line down in the wiki link, apparently if you question systemd, Lennart says you are an "asshole" (he goes on to blame dissent on almost everybody in the FOSS world, including Linus). The other LQ.org forum thread link has some interesting opinions and insights, these are LFS and BLFS users, so they got their hands dirty with systemd to a certain extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#H ... ontroversy

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... 175500300/

Please don't reply with "Lennart has a $#1+ personality, that's why you're a hater", not at all, I will agree that I don't like the way it was introduced and forced on people, like a dictatorship implements something unpopular but you are a traitor if you don't embrace it, bollox, I have my own mind and opinion, and that is systemd is just too bloated, secretive, unproven, buggy, proprietary, dependency creep and just plain unnecessary, systemd didn't fill a void or fix a problem, it just became a problem, it fractured the FOSS world beyond repair, and that is unforgivable. Peace out, Debhats.

Edited for spelling and grammar only.
Last edited by Linadian on 2015-06-23 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
Linux Registered User 533946

User avatar
ticojohn
Posts: 1284
Joined: 2009-08-29 18:10
Location: Costa Rica
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#50 Post by ticojohn »

I think you are all a HOOT ! Sounds to me like systemd and Google bashing is the game of the day. As far as Chrome install blob
it should be noted that is you are installing from the Debian repositories, it is not Chrome but Chromium. Chromium is the open source
version of Chrome and is totally controlled by the user (eg Debian). As to that "blob", please do a little reading here:

https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issu ... ?id=500922

Yeah, I know, ya'll don't trust Google. But THEY say that Debian took care of the issue.

If you can fix a problem, then do so. If you can't fix it, then don't use it. But bitchin ain't the same as fixin.
I am not irrational, I'm just quantum probabilistic.

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#51 Post by tomazzi »

stevepusser wrote:For someone seemingly as security-conscious as you seem to be against systemd, you sure aren't keeping up with the Snowden revelations. If they have put malware in a drive's firmware, it's not much of a leap to think it could be in proprietary video firmware. Maybe you should Goggle some things like what the common usage of binary blob is, too.
...
The viruses can be categorized more or less in this way:
1. Real computer viruses, which are written by computer geniuses/experts - usually they can inject/steal the data or create botnets.
2. "unwanted software" - created by programmers who are too stupid to write a real virus - they are spreading this crap in form of small shitty apps licensed as shareware (closed src of course). If they are lucky, their "viruses" can steal personal data, which collected into a database can be then sold to some spamming company.
3. The above apllies also to big corporations, which are embedding "unwanted software" in normal products. Then, in the name of "improving user experience" such software sends any kind of data to company's servers. This a kind of brain-hacking technique - as the users usually don't read the licenses, they are completely unaware of the fact that by clicking "next" they've just agreed to be spied.

With time systems are getting harder and harder for viruses to infiltrate, so a new, 4th category of viruses was created:
4. Non-existing viruses, which are "created" for two reasons:
a) - to assure, that a stream money will keep flowing to large companies which are selling av-software, security support services, security audits, etc - bilions of $$$ are spent on such things each year.
b) - to trigger some predictable actions on the user side:
The problem: It's impossible, even for institutions like NSA or companies like Google to store detailed informations on each user of the network. That would need astronomical amount of storage space and computing power - so instead, so-called "metadata" are stored. The problem is, that metadata are not accurate, and still requires a lot of computing power to analyse it and produce some valuable results.
How to solve this problem? - You need "virus" which is attacking poeple's brains.
F.e. to get a reasonably narrow list of IP adresses which are worth attention, NSA (f.e.) could allow mr Snowden to "steal" some "top-secret" documents, which are containing "shocking" informations about what unbelievably advanced techologies the NSA has on its disposition.
Then, all what is needed is to control just few internet sites which are publishing those "top-secret" docs, and check who is reading it - trivially easy and additionaly - cheap.
In this way, it is possible to limit the number of attention-worth IPs to let's say 0.5..1 milion (10^6) adresses, which can be then classified, based on what parts of documentation were read. You can safely throw away adresses of users who have spent just few minutes for reading the main article, because the article itself doesn't provide any valuable informations (from the security point of view). After this operation Your database will have a list of ~100'000 IP addresses of "potentially dangerous" or "interesting" people and organisations.
What then? This is a moment, where real viruses can step in, and infiltrate only selected targets, silently, without causing global panic.

Back to the topic:
Viruses hidden in HDD are a myth - it's a brain hack.
In theory, their purpose is to silently copy victim's data to a hidden disk area, in case when the system is not connected to the network. The problem is, that You need to steal the disk to get that data anyway. But if You are able to infiltrate some organisation so deeply that You can steal their hardware without being catched, then it's a plain stupidity to spend money on developing such a virus.

To execute the virus code hidden in unaccessible HDD area, You must know target system architecture, OS and bootloader used, security measures applied, etc: that means, that You have to infiltrate Your target *before* You actually launch the virus - but, since You already have an access to victim's vital data, there's no point to deploy a virus...

Chrome blob is falling into category number 3 - normally harmless, unless You have something to hide...

Regards.
Last edited by tomazzi on 2015-06-23 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
Odi profanum vulgus

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#52 Post by stevepusser »

mor wrote:...

(much deleted)

Would Steve coming here and telling you I'm right be enough to make you acknowledge you missed the point entirely?

Bye
You're right. 8)

tomazzi wrote: Back to the topic:
Viruses hidden in HDD are a myth - it's a brain hack.
Did you read the link about the Kapersky Labs report on the targeted HDD firmware infecting malware? If you mean that's a myth, are you calling those respected researchers and the rest of the security community scammers and liars? Where did Stuxnet come from, if not from the same source with vast resources?
Last edited by stevepusser on 2015-06-23 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
MX Linux packager and developer

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#53 Post by edbarx »

You are incapable to understand if you can't agree with me. :shock:

Unfortunately, the discussion, if ever there was any, now is degenerating into subtle personal attacks. I will stop here.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#54 Post by stevepusser »

edbarx wrote:You are incapable to understand if you can't agree with me. :shock:

Unfortunately, the discussion, if ever there was any, now is degenerating into subtle personal attacks. I will stop here.
You are not getting what my intended point was; mor explained it. I do agree that a vast amount of code is tough to audit, even if open, and is something to worry about. That's how the binary download got into Debian's Chromium, not to mention the problems that have been found in openssl.
MX Linux packager and developer

User avatar
edbarx
Posts: 5401
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#55 Post by edbarx »

In effect, what was said can be summarised as:

Open source code like Debian's, can be audited notwithstanding such a task is a mammoth task to accomplish. Close source code cannot be audited as it is closed. In this case, the Debian developers have nothing to blame as Chromium is huge and scrutinizing the entire code is impractical and usually unnecessary. However, the fact that many users have access to the code, apparently worked to ring the alarm bell.

I will give time to systemd. If it proves it is reliable and robust, it will be the same change of attitude I had towards MS Windows as the latest versions (Windows 7 and 8 ) are reliable and stable as time has clearly shown.

I am not closed to change my views and am proud of it.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#56 Post by tomazzi »

stevepusser wrote:
tomazzi wrote: Back to the topic:
Viruses hidden in HDD are a myth - it's a brain hack.
Did you read the link about the Kapersky Labs report on the targeted HDD firmware infecting malware? If you mean that's a myth, are you calling those respected researchers and the rest of the security community scammers and liars? Where did Stuxnet come from, if not from the same source with vast resources?
The most apropriate question here is: are You able to live without internet' and tv' *news* - or are You already "hacked" ?
...

Not so long ago, Dragos Ruiu (a "respected" researcher) have claimed that he found a "mysterious" virus:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 00#p518672

Not so long ago, a very similar (in quality) "revelations" were published, and they were "very well documented":
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p522797

Think for Yourself...

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#57 Post by stevepusser »

There have been Nobel prize winners (Muller, Josephson, Montagnier) that have become crackpots--but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish from calling the Kapersky Lab organization and the rest of the security community the same. Your examples were highly controversial in the community, especially concerning the mechanism for infection. Why do you think it's that difficult to infect HDD firmware? Security researchers don't see anything impossible about malware doing that--after all, it's been demonstrated that the firmware on just about every single USB device, even flash drives, can also be overwritten. And that exploit is in the wild. Or are you going to call the demonstration a hoax, like the moon landings? :)
MX Linux packager and developer

User avatar
Linadian
Posts: 490
Joined: 2013-12-20 15:25
Location: In a systemd free distro

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#58 Post by Linadian »

stevepusser wrote:Or are you going to call the demonstration a hoax, like the moon landings? :)
See what you started?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3jrLXkuKcw

Sure is a lot of fishy facts surrounding the so-called moon landing. I've always thought it was just a little too easy. The landing makes for great propaganda footage. Americans are good at that, making movies. :P :lol:
Linux Registered User 533946

User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
Posts: 14114
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: London, England
Has thanked: 81 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#59 Post by Head_on_a_Stick »

^
Image
deadbang

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#60 Post by tomazzi »

stevepusser wrote:...
Why do you think it's that difficult to infect HDD firmware? Security researchers don't see anything impossible about malware doing that
...
I didn't said that - I've said, that the attacker needs physical access to victim's infrastructure/hardware to steal the hdd *after* the data is collected.

So, although HDD can be infected / re-programmed just like any other system, it would be plainly stupid to do this - just like breaking open door.

I thought it was obvious...

Regards.

....................
Edit:
USB flash viruses are completely different animals - and yes, they are dangerous even for Linux-based systems.
It's because they are often infecting BIOS, not the OS. However, to get infected by such virus, You must be running winblows OR boot the system from the infected stick - never buy USB sticks from shitty, cheap manufacturers and never boot Your PC from a pendrive which is not Yours. Keep one good pendrive for booting Your Linux distro for a new installation, and never connect it to a machine running windows.
This should make You safe, with high probability ;)

PS. One of my PCs was infected by booting from a pendrive - foretunately the code was expecting winblows and caused easily visible malfunctions of hw under Linux - reflashing the BIOS have cured my PC :)

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus

User avatar
stevepusser
Posts: 12930
Joined: 2009-10-06 05:53
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 72 times

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#61 Post by stevepusser »

tomazzi wrote:
stevepusser wrote:...
Why do you think it's that difficult to infect HDD firmware? Security researchers don't see anything impossible about malware doing that
...
I didn't said that - I've said, that the attacker needs physical access to victim's infrastructure/hardware to steal the hdd *after* the data is collected.

So, although HDD can be infected / re-programmed just like any other system, it would be plainly stupid to do this - just like breaking open door.

I thought it was obvious...

Regards.

....................
The article said it was necessary to have physical access to the hard drive to recover the data if the target machine was kept off the Net for security reasons. It seems obvious that's how the data has to be recovered in that case. The malware was also able to steal encrypted data--if the user used something like Truecrypt on an uninfected drive, there was absolutely no chance of anyone getting anything off it, no matter if they had the hardware and worked on it for a million years.

However, since a HDD firmware infected machine is essentially "pwned", if it is connected to the Net, nothing prevents the data being extracted through that connection.

The Iranian centrifuge controllers were also kept off the Net to prevent this type of thing, but were still infected with Stuxnet from a flash drive, accidentally or otherwise. But that malware was designed to damage the centrifuges, not extract data.

Re: the moon landings. Nasa also had to send up secret manned missions to deposit the laser reflector, fake LEM lander stages, lunar rovers, footprints, etc., so they could appear in moon satellite images, too. :roll: BTW, please don't tell me you are going by the "flag waves when there's no air" or "there's no stars visible in the photos" type of "problems", are you?

I started to watch the video, and was first convinced by the use of ALL CAPS (SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE), but then the description brought up the hoary old crap about the Van Allen Belts, so forget it: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/debunking-myth ... ax-1457501

But this is veering way off topic now.
Funny how the Russians never brought up the hoax argument, even when they had the most incentive, isn't it?
MX Linux packager and developer

Randicus
Posts: 2663
Joined: 2011-05-08 09:11
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#62 Post by Randicus »

stevepusser wrote:Funny how the Russians never brought up the hoax argument, even when they had the most incentive, isn't it?
If they had, the Americans would have had incentive to expose the Russian hoaxes of orbiting stations and Venus landings. So they kept quiet about each other's hoaxes. :lol:

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#63 Post by tomazzi »

stevepusser wrote:The article said it was necessary to have physical access to the hard drive to recover the data if the target machine was kept off the Net for security reasons. It seems obvious that's how the data has to be recovered in that case. The malware was also able to steal encrypted data--if the user used something like Truecrypt on an uninfected drive, there was absolutely no chance of anyone getting anything off it, no matter if they had the hardware and worked on it for a million years.

However, since a HDD firmware infected machine is essentially "pwned", if it is connected to the Net, nothing prevents the data being extracted through that connection.
This is just another myth, and yet another brain-hack:
If the system is running, the encryption doesn't protect the data - since the filesystem is mounted, any software can access the data without a problem. So, if You have a physical access to target infrastructure, You dont have to steal the drive - You can just make a copy.

In fact, encryption can protect You only if You would be so stupid to keep critical data on mobile devices like laptops, phones and if You lose them by accident.
But if someone *really* would like to attack You, he can hijack your laptop while You are logged in - f.e. by convincing You that his gun is really loaded - much, much simpler than writting a sophisticated virus for hdd ;)

Regards.
Odi profanum vulgus

somebodyelse
Posts: 231
Joined: 2015-05-24 17:15

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#64 Post by somebodyelse »

America itself does not really exist. It's just an optical illusion. Think about it. There's not a single American who doesn't look like he or she could plausibly come from somewhere else. In fact, I don't even exist and this message is just a product of your own warped mind. Keep taking your medication. Keep taking your medication. Keeeeeppppp taaakkiiinggg yyyyyyoouurrrrr MEEEEEEeedddiCCCCccaaAAttiOONnn.

tomazzi
Posts: 730
Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

Re: Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

#65 Post by tomazzi »

somebodyelse wrote:... Keep taking your medication. Keeeeeppppp taaakkiiinggg yyyyyyoouurrrrr MEEEEEEeedddiCCCCccaaAAttiOONnn.
I can only hope that this guy have survived... maybe there was somebody else who could help him...
Odi profanum vulgus

Post Reply