Chrome install blob slips past Debian devs

[somebodyelse]

^What does systemd have to do with Chromium? And who are you exactly that your excitable nudge nudge wink wink bad-mouthing of Debian should be taken seriously? You're like the Sun newspaper in the UK where articles have inflammatory eye-catching headlines that don't match the actual stories they precede.

If you don't like systemd, use something else.
If you don't like Debian, use something else.

I don't even mind you coherently and level-headedly critiquing systemd.

But if you're going to hang around on a Debian forum just to spread panic and ill-feeling like a sad schoolboy troll, you have to ask yourself serious questions about how you're wasting your life. You and not systemd are the problem.

[Linadian]

^What does systemd have to do with Chromium? And who are you exactly that your excitable nudge nudge wink wink bad-mouthing of Debian should be taken seriously? You're like the Sun newspaper in the UK where articles have inflammatory eye-catching headlines that don't match the actual stories they precede.

If you don't like systemd, use something else.
If you don't like Debian, use something else.

I don't even mind you coherently and level-headedly critiquing systemd.

But if you're going to hang around on a Debian forum just to spread panic and ill-feeling like a sad schoolboy troll, you have to ask yourself serious questions about how you're wasting your life. You and not systemd are the problem.

Ha ha, you're funny, you are giving me far too much credit, lol, I spend no where near the amount of time or keystrokes in here as you think (I get notifications about your inane responses).

I am using something else, it's called PCLinuxOS, low and behold, it has NO systemd.

As for sad little Johnny come latelys, you just joined a month ago? Have you made any financial donations, bug reports, anything to Debhat? In Linux and Debhat years terms, you should at least grow some fuzz on your tiny little sack before rubbing my rhubarb.

If you think I am some kind of conflict of interest, Debhat adopting systemd has to be one of the biggest conflict of interests in this decade, you are obviously misinformed or you work for Redhat, why the protect it so zealously? What's the reason for your great interest who bashes what? Are you a friend of Lennart's? You are OK with the corporate swallowing of the Linux landscape, real FOSS/GNU people are not.

[somebodyelse]

I've been using Debian for several years now and it's precisely because your kind of posting is potentially damaging that I finally joined the forum. Debian is still free and it's the best system in that sense that we have. I care deeply about FOSS which is why I use Debian and why I find your ungrounded insinuations so detrimental. Go and use PCLinuxOS and stop peeing in the water others have to drink from.

Disclaimer: I don't work for Red Hat or Canonical or SUSE or Microsoft.

[edbarx]

stop peeing in the water others have to drink from

Never mind, new software, whatever its genre, has the tendency of doing just that unexpectedly.

Don't count your chicks before they start laying eggs, as counting them as soon as they hatch, has proven to be bad advice.

[stevepusser]

AMD FX-8350, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 (rev. 4.0), 2x120GB SATA 3 SSDs, 2 storage HDDs, 2x8GB Kingston HyperX Fury DDR3, Radeon R7 250, Thermaltake V3 Black AMD Edition case
I am NOT part of the systemd Borg collective, Lennart is NOT my God. d:^P

Don't you have to install horrible CLOSED-source firmware blobs to get any performance out of that Radeon video card? Why don't you use Intel graphics, or Nvidia with the nouveau driver?

[Randicus]

As for sad little Johnny come latelys, you just joined a month ago? Have you made any financial donations, bug reports, anything to Debhat? In Linux and Debhat years terms, you should at least grow some fuzz on your tiny little sack before rubbing my rhubarb.

Why do you assume a new forum account belongs to a person new to Debian or even new to the forum?

I am using something else, it's called PCLinuxOS, low and behold, it has NO systemd.

For now.

[Linadian]

AMD FX-8350, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 (rev. 4.0), 2x120GB SATA 3 SSDs, 2 storage HDDs, 2x8GB Kingston HyperX Fury DDR3, Radeon R7 250, Thermaltake V3 Black AMD Edition case
I am NOT part of the systemd Borg collective, Lennart is NOT my God. d:^P

Don't you have to install horrible CLOSED-source firmware blobs to get any performance out of that Radeon video card? Why don't you use Intel graphics, or Nvidia with the nouveau driver?

Nope, absolutely not, using the opensource kernel module (kerplunk is just some random name I made up for privacy reasons, yeah yeah, it sounds like a 'dump', blah blah)...

Code: Select all

[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ lspci | grep VGA
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Oland XT [Radeon HD 8670 / R5 340X / R7 250/350X]
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ find /dev -group video
/dev/video0
/dev/fb0
/dev/dri/card0
/dev/dri/renderD128
/dev/dri/controlD64
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ glxinfo | grep -i vendor
server glx vendor string: SGI
client glx vendor string: Mesa Project and SGI
OpenGL vendor string: X.Org
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$

[Linadian]

As for sad little Johnny come latelys, you just joined a month ago? Have you made any financial donations, bug reports, anything to Debhat? In Linux and Debhat years terms, you should at least grow some fuzz on your tiny little sack before rubbing my rhubarb.

Why do you assume a new forum account belongs to a person new to Debian or even new to the forum?

I am using something else, it's called PCLinuxOS, low and behold, it has NO systemd.

For now.

I have battle scars from this forum, lol, you don't just walk in and start throwing your weight around.

Bill seems pretty sure we can hold off using systemd for quite a while yet, there's always Devuan, they need money and testers.

[stevepusser]

AMD FX-8350, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3 (rev. 4.0), 2x120GB SATA 3 SSDs, 2 storage HDDs, 2x8GB Kingston HyperX Fury DDR3, Radeon R7 250, Thermaltake V3 Black AMD Edition case
I am NOT part of the systemd Borg collective, Lennart is NOT my God. d:^P

Don't you have to install horrible CLOSED-source firmware blobs to get any performance out of that Radeon video card? Why don't you use Intel graphics, or Nvidia with the nouveau driver?

Nope, absolutely not, using the opensource kernel module (kerplunk is just some random name I made up for privacy reasons, yeah yeah, it sounds like a 'dump', blah blah)...

Code: Select all

[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ lspci | grep VGA
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Oland XT [Radeon HD 8670 / R5 340X / R7 250/350X]
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ find /dev -group video
/dev/video0
/dev/fb0
/dev/dri/card0
/dev/dri/renderD128
/dev/dri/controlD64
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$ glxinfo | grep -i vendor
server glx vendor string: SGI
client glx vendor string: Mesa Project and SGI
OpenGL vendor string: X.Org
[kerplunk@Mark-13 ~]$

Interesting! So that card doesn't need firmware-linux-nonfree to get 3D acceleration?

[thanatos_incarnate]

[Linadian]

Interesting! So that card doesn't need firmware-linux-nonfree to get 3D acceleration?

What does this have to do with Goggle sneaking spyware on to your computer AFTER the main package is installed, and the former whooshing right over the heads of the Debhat devs?

In all honesty I thought you meant the proprietary video driver, I still don't see how a "firmware blob" compares to unauthorized spyware installation. There is no parallel here, you're really reaching.

[Randicus]

There is no parallel here, you're really reaching.

No he is not. Non-free firmware contain binary blobs. Some are non-free as in copyright code, and others are hidden "secrets." Which answers the question:

In all honesty I thought you meant the proprietary video driver, I still don't see how a "firmware blob" compares to unauthorized spyware installation.

An OS has no control over what is in those binary blobs and what they may do. Debian developers at least make an effort to keep them out.

[stevepusser]

I was trying to contrast systemd, which at least has the source code available for inspection, with firmware that doesn't. But it's hard to escape mystery firmware, after all EUFI is so complex it's basically an OS in itself, and the NSA has been intercepting hard drives in shipment and putting their own spy firmware in the drive's circuitry. And now a twenty year old hacker claims he has malware capable of doing the same thing: http://www.malwaretech.com/2015/06/hard ... iving.html

[somebodyelse]

The law is "open source" in many countries but practically difficult to access to the general public owing to jargon/terminology/complexity. So open source doesn't always guarantee freedom (see obfuscript).

The problem I have with this thread is that on the one hand we have Google doing something after a package has been installed which has been spotted and dealt with i.e. it isn't a hanging issue. On the other we have systemd, which is unrelated to the above, where there is a whole plethora of complaints (which get confused) but no evidence of evil. For example, you'll hear that it's huge and difficult to audit so it must contain NSA backdoors. For me the answer is not to bitch about all this but rather to raise systemd skills and awareness among users who use it and to audit it and, for those who really must use something else, to make sure that this something else is built. That is what guarantees freedom. But this is not a Debian-specific issue and it's tedious in the extreme for it to be made into one and it's tiresome for some commentators to insinuate NSA links to Debian on the flimsiest of pretences, when those same commentators were silent about any of that when discussing openSUSE, Arch Linux and Fedora all of which have used systemd as default for some time.

Debian with systemd is functioning as freely as it ever did. Systemd is technically free software under the GPL and with its source code available. That it is a large behemoth (as opposed to a small behemoth) that only a few understand only makes it like the kernel.

I am not for or against systemd. I am against insinuation regarding non-systemd topics being used to bash systemd and Debian. Let technical cases be made. Let the people who no longer want to use Debian leave. But let's not insinuate and gripe like bitches. Debian is still the best OS for software freedom. Just because the co-maintainer of xmms works for Microsoft doesn't mean that Debian is now under Microsoft control, although I would consider that this co-maintainer (of a single package) to be acting (generally) in Microsoft's interests since he is paid to do that and, without suggesting he be stalked/harrassed, I'd certainly keep a close eye on his contributions, comments etc.

But - and this is a key point - the issue highlighted in the name of this thread has been spotted and dealt with. That some PCLinuxOS user with a kool avatar now enlists this issue and wraps it in insinuations to fuel his gripe against systemd/Debian is another matter entirely.

Is this a Debian user forum or a sounding board for bitter former users?

---> http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/

[Linadian]

Wow, and you people say I have a tinfoil hat, lol, now video firmware has spyware (or a spyware installer?), umm, OK.

As for blathering on about systemd, I still don't see how anybody can trust a huge overbearing secretive blob, let alone have it take over your whole OS, each to their own.

FYI, I didn't write Goggles spyware installer disguised as an app or the article. I'm not part of the sloppy Debhat quality control either (I used to report bugs). I think you people are freaked because Debhat is collapsing in to a pile of mushy $#1+ right before your eyes, you'll lash out at anybody that points these things out. It's actually kind of funny, watching you defend Debhat until its last dying breath, how noble and loyal (blind loyalty). You could also call it Redbuntian, whatever it is now, it's certainly not Debian anymore.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

systemd [...] blob

The term "blob" refers to binary executables whose source code cannot be read.

This term cannot be applied to systemd.

@tomazzi has demonstrated shortfalls in the systemd code base because the source code can be freely audited by anybody with the requisite technical skills.

[somebodyelse]

I think you people are freaked because Debhat is collapsing in to a pile of mushy $#1+ right before your eyes

Debian is doing fine.

[Linadian]

I think you people are freaked because Debhat is collapsing in to a pile of mushy $#1+ right before your eyes

Debian is doing fine.

No it's not, the release of Jessie was paltry and weak, I watched the sad 'party' on Twitter unfold, including Microsoft throwing a party for them, cake and all, now if that's not a pie in the face, I don't know what is. Enjoy your Lenndows, it sure aint Debian anymore. You just don't get it, it's gutted from the inside by Redhat, then MS pulls this stunt to remove any doubt Debian has completely sold out and is everybodys' b1+c# now (including Canonical), my gawd, open your eyes.

[somebodyelse]

Microsoft throwing a party is THEIR choice not Debian's. It can also be interpreted as a tactic to make Debian look friendly with Microsoft when all we see is one small-time co-maintainer of a small Debian package throwing a party with his employers. They may want to discredit Debian. They may want to win developer mindshare. Who knows?

Can you not see that ALL the dynamic here comes from Microsoft and not from Debian? Debian probably has no mechanism to stop Microsoft throwing a party.

I really dislike and distrust Microsoft and I think people who have bought the "Microsoft has changed" line are very naïve and poor historians. But that is all the more reason to huddle round and protect Debian.

Systemd may be a poor choice but Debian isn't really upstream. It's more of an integrator and is therefore probably more dependent on upstream changes than it would like to be.

When you feel an emotional reaction, consider that reaction as Point B and your previous emotional state as Point A. There are skilled communications people who know how to take you from Point A to Point B, without you understanding that they and not the perceived external stimulus/event are responsible for this change in state. So when you go from Point A to Point B, consider everything that has happened in-between and consider that if it was in someone's interest to take you there and if they had the capability to do so, then most likely they will have done so. If Debian has adopted systemd and you feel bad about that, consider that someone somewhere may just want you to feel bad about Debian. It is in Microsoft's interest for you to become disaffected with Debian. Remember that.

[edbarx]

@tomazzi has demonstrated shortfalls in the systemd code base because the source code can be freely audited by anybody with the requisite technical skills.

Tomazzi has demonstrated that parts of systemd code do not guard against the eventuality of errors, which is a must, especially considering the role of systemd, including its satellite executables. This means, systemd, ironically PID1, can find itself in situations where it can crash, obviously, bringing down the entire OS with it, due to programmatically avoidable errors.

Now, if we were to assess a student-programmer writing such crucial code with the same omissions, what mark would you all think they should get? In my case, they deserve a failure, as OS-Critical code, should be robust to survive all foreseeable errors.