This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!?

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This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!?

Postby TonyVanDam » 2015-07-01 17:15

Excuse me if this is old news for some of you.

For all current and former Debian users that really wanted to know what Richard M. Stallman finally had to say about the controversial systemd, his following exact quotes are as followed:

On systemd

The systemd init software has rocked the Linux community, causing forks of popular distributions and sparking heated debate.

Stallman, however, has long stood apart from the world of open-source and Linux – he regards “open-source” as a weak form of openness, and insists on referring to Linux as GNU/Linux. Thus, it wasn’t a surprise that, when asked whether he had an opinion on the systemd controversy, he replied with a flat “no, I don’t.”

“I’ve never seen it, I’ve never used a system that had it; I know it’s free software, so ethically speaking, it’s not an issue – it’s just a convenience question.”


SOURCE:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/290 ... l#comments

In other words, Stallman never has to deal with systemd because he's still using gNewSense. But I still would like to know if he will still be using gNewSense whenever a future version is systemd infested like the current Debian (beginning with Jessie) is.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby NkfzGx3ok » 2015-07-01 22:05

You can tell someone has never used Emacs when they think RMS would hate systemd :lol:

On a more serious note RMS cares about Free (As in Freedom, not Beer) software, systemd is just that. Stallman wont be "infested" because it is not closed proprietary software. It seems like you have may have some confusion on the licensing of the systemd project. Also I don't think he would care about running systemd, he has never actually installed GNU/Linux himself and always has someone from a Linux User Group do it for him because he has no need to waste time on such mundane tasks, as you can see him talking about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umQL37AC_YM
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-02 07:35

It's important to keep issues separate:
- systemd may have problems but these are not software freedom problems since it is licensed under the LGPL
- the LGPL v2.1 may have problems but it is considered a legitimate free software license by the FSF
- Debian may have problems but it has never had an obligation not to integrate a specific free software component on account of issues that don't relate to software freedom (as defined by Debian/FSF)

Integrating systemd into Debian may be a technical mistake (or it may not) but it is not immoral or against Debian's own ethics/rules for conduct.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby Randicus » 2015-07-02 09:21

The fact that Stallman has been silent about systemd clearly shows that he not opposed to it. Why are some people still waiting for him to lead a crusade against it?

The problem surrounding Stallman and Torvalds is most Linux users see them as gods that only speak divine truth. Stallman does not care what is put into an OS, as long as the code is made freely available. As long as the code is technically free he is happy. Whether or not users have real choice is irrelevant.


NkfzGx3ok wrote:Also I don't think he would care about running systemd, he has never actually installed GNU/Linux himself and always has someone from a Linux User Group do it for him because he has no need to waste time on such mundane tasks
Priceless. :lol: The messiah of software freedom has never installed a Linux system! :shock: Fills me with the utmost confidence.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2015-07-02 09:51

Randicus wrote:Stallman does not care what is put into an OS, as long as the code is made freely available. As long as the code is technically free he is happy. Whether or not users have real choice is irrelevant.

Whether or not users have real choice is the whole point.
As long as the code is free you have all the choice you need - you can do with it whatever you want.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby keithpeter » 2015-07-02 10:36

Hello All

http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/

Read a bit of this to see where Richard Stallman is coming from. There is a .pdf and a bookreader version floating around as well. All appropriately licenced of course.

Ask any hardened sysadmin about programmers and if the sysadmin would trust a programmer with root access or to install their own tool chain. Then stand well back. :twisted:
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby dasein » 2015-07-02 22:55

Given that one of the explicit design goals/features of systemd is to ease the insertion of binary blobs into the OS, I confess to being a tiny bit surprised. (But only a tiny bit.)
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-07-03 07:19

dasein wrote:Given that one of the explicit design goals/features of systemd is to ease the insertion of binary blobs into the OS

Please elaborate on this (with citations).
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-03 10:19

Doesn't the LGPL make it easier for the software concerned to interact with non-free software? Isn't that the issue rather than "binary blobs"?

But anyway, RMS' values (in spite of his inability to install gNewSense/Trisquel - haha what a noob) have long been the cornerstone of Debian's own values. At one point, Debian was even sponsored by the FSF. Therefore it makes sense that Debian's approach reflects RMS' logic. It is software licensed under a free licence, therefore it is ok.

I installed gNewSense yesterday. It made me miss Squeeze (on which it is based). So nice just to have Gnome 2 + Shiki Colors. "Mummy, why did Gnome 2 have to go away?"
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby edbarx » 2015-07-04 09:21

Unfortunately, but fortunately for those who adopt them, underhand tactics, were used in the past, are used at present, and will continue to be used in the future. Anyone above the age of reason can understand that. By this I am not claiming systemd falls into this category, but for the sake of discussion, one cannot expect all people to behave responsibly, and to refrain from using contorted ways to achieve their goals. The problem with the latter is, they never want to incriminate themselves.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby keithpeter » 2015-07-04 10:17

somebodyelse wrote:I installed gNewSense yesterday. It made me miss Squeeze (on which it is based). So nice just to have Gnome 2 + Shiki Colors. "Mummy, why did Gnome 2 have to go away?"

It has to be said that my own computing needs are so basic that just about any distro from Debian Etch / Ubuntu 6.06 (the first LTS) upwards would be fine.

Gnome 2: Any of the RHEL version 6 clones (CentOS / Scientific Linux / Springdale Linux / Oracle Linux) will give you Gnome 2.3x with updates until 2020. Add the epel and nux-desktop repositories and you have quite a nice system. Just no mono based applications (no shotwell &c).

gNewSense: Version 4 is based on Wheezy as the gNewSense project tracks Debian. There is an alpha netinstall available on the InterWebs, read mailing list before an install. Runs fine on an X60 with 1.5Gb RAM so RHS may well be rocking to Gnome 3 soon. Wouldn't it be fun if he turned out to *really like it* :twisted:
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-04 10:34

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Please elaborate on this (with citations).

I think it was about so-called "userspace firmware loader", which was (fortunately) removed from systemd in v217, after a long fight...

somebodyelse wrote:(...) in spite of his inability to install gNewSense/Trisquel - haha what a noob (...)

That's not what He said.
Maybe You should search for a written version of this interview - and then read it carefully...

Regards.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-04 11:09

^It was a joke :-) Of course I was misrepresenting his position.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby reinob » 2015-07-04 11:42

tomazzi wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Please elaborate on this (with citations).

I think it was about so-called "userspace firmware loader", which was (fortunately) removed from systemd in v217, after a long fight...


The kernel couldn't itself load firmware until like 3.7, so before that it had to be userspace (udev). This has nothing to do with systemd (other than the fact that udev is part of the systemd project).

Since jessie has 3.16 systemd/udev removed the userspace firmware loading.

Still @dasein's point that
Given that one of the explicit design goals/features of systemd is to ease the insertion of binary blobs into the OS, I confess to being a tiny bit surprised. (But only a tiny bit.)


has not been answered. Unless he was referring to firmware loading, in which case the comment was a clear attempt at trolling :)
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-04 14:35

reinob wrote:(...)
The kernel couldn't itself load firmware until like 3.7, so before that it had to be userspace (udev). This has nothing to do with systemd (other than the fact that udev is part of the systemd project).

Actually, this is not correct, it should be:
"The kernel couldn't itself dynamically load firmware until like 3.7, so before that it had to be userspace, using hotplug *or* udev (...) which is part of systemd"

This is an obvious technical limitation - the firmware located in a filesystem can be only accessed *after* the filesystem is mounted, that is, in the userspace ;)

Regards.
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