This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!?

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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby millpond » 2015-07-07 22:51

On my 8.1 system it seems like I have both systemd and sysvinit installed.

I have no clue as to what systemd is *supposed* to do.
Things seem to run fine from init.d .

systemadm yields a toially blank gui screen. Apparently a *good* thing.

Is systemd likely doing anything?

It looks like so far I have a *choice* here, and may go off grid sticking with Jessie if systemd becomes more invasive.

If fail2ban is an indication of systemd apps, then I want no part of it. A binary logfile on an intrusion detector???? Idiocy.

What I like about sysvinit is the total freedom it gives over daemons (at least in 'user space'!).

I can script them on or off, or even yank them out of the boot chain. I want no part of anything that complicates this process.

So while all this stuff is new, so dar it seems there is still choice. When that diminishes, I will need to fork away from the main distro.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-07-08 06:49

millpond wrote:What I like about sysvinit is the total freedom it gives over daemons (at least in 'user space'!).

You can view all .services, .sockets & .targets in systemd with:
Code: Select all
ls -lR /etc/systemd/system

Use this to stop any of them:
Code: Select all
# systemctl disable <name of .service>

Some need to be masked *cough*avahi*cough*:
Code: Select all
# systemctl mask <name of .service>

You can even `apt-get source` and use the `./configure` options to remove any functionality you don't like.

More information on running jessie without systemd here:
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-08 08:15

Let's not make this a general systemd thread. Stallman's opinion is interesting because he has made software freedom his life's mission and some critics of systemd claim systemd is a danger to those freedoms.

Personally, if you feel systemd is a danger to software freedom, it might be a good idea to compile a level-headed report on it (without emotional/polarising words like "abomination") and address it specifically to him.

Still, isn't the history of Linux (sic) what it is because frankly RMS hasn't got a clue about this low-level system stuff?

In other words, he may be a good guardian of software freedom in terms of the parameters he has set. But he is no longer a young man and is probably not the best person to fully comprehend how the freedom of the users of computers/devices can be compromised in the age of accelerating changes we are living in.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby edbarx » 2015-07-08 08:38

In other words, he may be a good guardian of software freedom in terms of the parameters he has set. But he is no longer a young man and is probably not the best person to fully comprehend how the freedom of the users of computers/devices can be compromised in the age of accelerating changes we are living in.

Therefore, discredit him as his ideas are obsolete...

It is an unfounded assumption the claim that being old also implies one's ideas are necessarily obsolete. It is also a taken for granted, the conviction that old people cannot understand the world around them, and cannot therefore, properly respond to its newer necessities.

Younger people necessarily have less experience which makes them more prone to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors. Therefore, the optimum, if it exists, doesn't belong to being young or old, but it rather belongs to a position, where one is determined to learn from the past mistakes of others, while at the same time, evaluates the situation to change strategy accordingly.

Both mental aptitude and experience are necessary, other than that, it would be a path full of failures.
Last edited by edbarx on 2015-07-08 09:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-08 08:50

That's not what I meant. I just meant that as with so many other things, it is the youth of today who will find the solutions of the software freedom problems of tomorrow.

Systemd may have software freedom problems that he doesn't spot because they don't break his rules for software freedom. His rules may not be the only rules for software freedom.

As we age, our minds become less open to new things and less flexible. This is known and scientifically established. I meant no disrespect to him. Only that he is very good at defending the problem in terms of the parameters he has set. He may be less able to reimagine those parameters as the issue changes over time.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby edbarx » 2015-07-08 09:14

You always attack arguments by saying it is not what you meant, and to add insult to injury, you repeat the same argument with exactly the same hidden message: old people are inflexible, which surprisingly means the same thing. I would be embarrassed to take a position as horrible as racism. Old people can still offer their precious experiences to younger generations.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby mor » 2015-07-08 10:11

edbarx wrote:You always attack arguments by saying it is not what you meant,

And yet you still are missing the point.
edbarx wrote:old people are inflexible, which surprisingly means the same thing.

That is what YOU think he said, no matter how strongly deluded you are in believing it.
He is telling you he didn't say that, now I am telling you that you missed the point (and it is not the first time).

What do you make of this?

edbarx wrote:I would be embarrassed to take a position as horrible as racism. Old people can still offer their precious experiences to younger generations.

Now arguing that old people are inflexible, which is not what he said, is the same as racism?

WOW! :shock:
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby goulo » 2015-07-08 10:38

mor wrote:
edbarx wrote:You always attack arguments by saying it is not what you meant,

And yet you still are missing the point.
edbarx wrote:old people are inflexible, which surprisingly means the same thing.

That is what YOU think he said, no matter how strongly deluded you are in believing it.
He is telling you he didn't say that, now I am telling you that you missed the point (and it is not the first time).


He directly wrote "As we age, our minds become less open to new things and less flexible. This is known and scientifically established."

Are you just quibbling about the distinction between "inflexible" and "less flexible"?

I know plenty of people who became more open to new things and more flexible as they aged. Being old does not imply less flexible.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby mor » 2015-07-08 11:37

goulo wrote:Are you just quibbling about the distinction between "inflexible" and "less flexible"?

No, I'm quibbling about the meaning of statements.

If I say that as one ages the nose grows bigger and bigger, is it the same as saying that all old people have big noses?
Do you really think it is the same statement?

goulo wrote:I know plenty of people who became more open to new things and more flexible as they aged. Being old does not imply less flexible.

"I know plenty of people who became old without getting lung cancer while smoking three packs a a day. Smoking does not imply cancer."

I bet this would be your go-to reply if I was arguing that smoking facilitates lung and throat cancer. You would think that it is the same as saying that smoking "implies" lung and throat cancer.

What "somebodyelse" said, is that with age people become less flexible. You want to challenge that?
Challenge that, not the completely different "being old implies inflexibility".
I'm pretty sure that "somebodyelse" will not feel like you're missing the point if you argue against the notion that "with age people become less flexible" (a suggestion, anecdotal evidence, namely "the people you know" is never a good argument).

By the way, that bit I quoted was only interesting and useful to ponder on the notion that saying something like "old people are inflexible", which, again for the thick ones, is not what has been said, can be compared to racism as something just "as horrible".

Because that speaks very well about the minds of the people arguing here.

Bye ;)
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-08 14:33

I'm very surprised by the response.

Ok... It goes something like this. I am systemd-neutral. I don't know enough about it to take a position. I think things can be bad. I think things can be labelled as being bad without actually being bad. In the context of systemd, I have Poettering and pals on the one hand saying "Would you like some more systemd?" and on the other hordes of angry sysadmins and their ilk saying it is the end of civilisation as we know it. In this polarised climate, I look to two traditional barometers: Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman, neither of whom as it happens gives the slightest shit about systemd. Now, while these men are not infallible, they are considered experts in their domain. For me, looking to have a sense of what is good or bad, their opinions are perhaps the best I can get, under the circumstances.

However, in view of the fact that Richard Stallman has not yet encountered systemd, I am curious to see whether or not systemd does actually compromise software freedom. RMS doesn't really know yet.

In view of this, my point about his inflexibility was about the fact that in the 1980s he started the FSF with a specific understanding of the issues. He has been constant in defending software freedom, according to those parameters in the intervening decades.

Given that your mind does become less able to absorb new concepts as you get older, I wondered whether systemd might obey the letter of the law (the GPL) while not respecting its spirit (freedom for software users) and that because he only imagines the problem in terms of the letter of the law, whether he might not miss things like this.

If you think at 50, you have anywhere near the learning power you had at 25, you're seriously deluding yourself. I can dig some articles and some graphs out if you like but if you're over 35, it's all downhill I'm afraid. Organisms are born and then they die (slowly). I didn't think this was a controversial opinion. Sorry.

PS. I hope you choke on systemd.
PPS. I'm putting the second half of this sentence in bold because I like adding emphasis just for the sake of it.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby goulo » 2015-07-08 15:33

OK, this is an increasingly silly tangent, but:

somebodyelse wrote:If you think at 50, you have anywhere near the learning power you had at 25, you're seriously deluding yourself. I can dig some articles and some graphs out if you like but if you're over 35, it's all downhill I'm afraid. Organisms are born and then they die (slowly). I didn't think this was a controversial opinion.

I certainly agree that learning power declines.

But you didn't mention learning power before. You said "our minds become less open to new things and less flexible", which seems a clearly different issue to me. I guess you meant learning power, but it wasn't at all clear to me. It sounded more like "we become more closed-minded and set in our ways, refusing to listen to evidence that disagrees with our preconceptions" etc, which is quite different from learning less effectively.

Whatever, sorry to continue this silly tangent. On the other hand, I guess it's a change of pace from the endless cycle of systemd debates. :)
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby GarryRicketson » 2015-07-08 17:07

somebodyelse » Given that your mind does become less able to absorb new concepts as you get older, I wondered whether systemd might obey the letter of the law (the GPL) while not respecting its spirit (freedom for software users) and that because he only imagines the problem in terms of the letter of the law, whether he might not miss things like this.

If you think at 50, you have anywhere near the learning power you had at 25, you're seriously deluding yourself. I can dig some articles and some graphs out if you like but if you're over 35, it's all downhill I'm afraid. Organisms are born and then they die (slowly). I didn't think this was a controversial opinion. Sorry.

Well, at 61, and getting younger every day, I disagree, if anything my mind is able to absorb "new concepts" more then ever, when I was younger, I tended to reject "new concepts", But it still depends, some "new concepts" are totally ridicules, and a older, wiser person, can see that,
Most people under 35 do not have anywhere close to the experience needed to make "wise" decisions, they are often eager to explore "new concepts", but those concepts often only seem
new , because they are still to young, to realize it is nothing new. Nothing irritates me more then a
young "smart aleck" that thinks they know everything.
It is easy to create graphs and articles, that try to "stereotype" everybody", at 35 I was still climbing the "mountain", so to speak, now I can see I have almost reached the top, the view is beautiful, incredible, after reaching the "peak", the journey back down, is a joy, yes down hill, easier, coasting,...
Organisms are born and then they die (slowly)

Well, for "organisms" yes, all organic material, degenerates gradually or sometimes rapidly,...
The human mind is much more the just a "organism", there is no doubt in my mind, now, because I am so close to the "peak" , and I can see all around me, below and above too, there is no "end" to my journey, yes after this "mountain" I will go down, into another valley, then cross that, there are more mountains, oceans, and the universe is unlimited, infinite, it never ends, and "my mind" explores it , I enjoy the "coasting downhill" and well as the "climbing the mountain", crossing the oceans, or deserts, I don't really like that much, because it all ways takes so long, often they seem endless, but they all ways do end, and there are always new "horizons" , as well as "new concepts", these give me "goals" or "points of reference", to move toward.
The organisms, that "evolved" from apes, usually never can grasp this "concept", but that is a entirely different subject.
As far as "systemd" goes, the discussions and arguments are boring and a waste of time, I prefer
using "wheezy" at this time,because I am more familiar with it, but I am also using Jessie, with sysetmd, and exploring, that, so far I
have had no problems, and am actually starting to see many advantages to systemd, which, if the people doing these "meaning less" discussions ever took the time,some research will show, systemd is not a very "newconcept" at all,
When I saw this comment
If you think at 50, you have anywhere near the learning power you had at 25, you're seriously deluding yourself.
I realized this guy does not have a clue as to what he/she is talking about, I don't think I can take anything they say seriously any more.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-08 20:59

^ http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2015052 ... -your-life

But thanks for your vote of confidence...
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby Randicus » 2015-07-08 23:33

somebodyelse wrote:If you think at 50, you have anywhere near the learning power you had at 25, you're seriously deluding yourself.
Good grief. :roll:
I better stop learning languages then. Before being informed that my almost fifty-year-old mind is too deteriorated to learn new things, I was able to learn just as effectively as I did twenty-five years ago. Now that I know the truth, I shall never be able to learn anything again.
I can dig some articles and some graphs out if you like but if you're over 35, it's all downhill I'm afraid.
Articles and graphs made by whom? I can make a graph the "proves" anything I want it prove.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-08 23:46

GarryRicketson wrote: Well, at 61, and getting younger every day (...)
Sorry, but I just don't believe You.

somebodyelse wrote:Ok... It goes something like this. I am systemd-neutral. I don't know enough about it to take a position. I think things can be bad. I think things can be labelled as being bad without actually being bad.

"Things" can be also labelled as being "just awesome", while in fact they're shit.

somebodyelse wrote:I look to two traditional barometers: Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman, neither of whom as it happens gives the slightest shit about systemd. Now, while these men are not infallible, they are considered experts in their domain. For me, looking to have a sense of what is good or bad, their opinions are perhaps the best I can get, under the circumstances.

However, in view of the fact that Richard Stallman has not yet encountered systemd, I am curious to see whether or not systemd does actually compromise software freedom. RMS doesn't really know yet.

Both of them had no problem with criticising shit, until now.
At least several times Linus Torvalds have criticised systemd developers (often using offensive terms). He have also criticised d-bus and udev firmware loader (which are part of systemd).
So: actually he have crtiticised important parts of systemd and called systemd developers "a morons", "code monkeys", etc, but "he has no strong opinion" ?
Really, You must be very naive to not realise that He just can't say anything wrong about systemd - at least not directly...

RMS has GNU - and GNU has dmd ;)

Regards.
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