This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!?

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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby alansmithee » 2015-07-09 06:04

I have utmost respect for Mr Stallman and highly recommend that his LibrePlanet keynote from which the quote was taken be viewed in its entirety.

However, ...
rms wrote:“<...> I know it’s free software, so ethically speaking, it’s not an issue – it’s just a convenience question.”

This assertion is not necessarily true -- and is inconsistent with Mr Stallman's willingness in the past to find issue with other projects despite the fact that the software they provided qualified as free software.

He has fully admitted that the OpenOffice word processor is free software, yet he and his organization, the FSF, initiated a campaign against it for providing links to non-free extensions and its choice of a GNU-recommended, though permissive, free software license. This campaign eventually evolved into the LibreOffice fork, which has been endorsed by the FSF as preferable to OpenOffice.

Consider also his long-standing defense of his GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) not including the capability to provide external access to the internal abstract syntax tree (AST) generated during compilation. Providing such access would in no way confront qualification of GCC as free software, yet he has thus far remained strongly opposed to adding this functionality as doing so might facilitate creating non-free development tools and extensions based on GCC.

These, and other situations (e.g. Mono, Firefox, MySQL, even the non-endorsement of Debian GNU/Linux), demonstrate his recognition that there can be more to consider than an unequivocal "it’s free software, so ethically speaking, it’s not an issue"; thus it would be misguided to ascribe too much significance to his off-the-cuff response during a Q&A session.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby thepointystick » 2015-07-09 09:10

Mono is written in the MS patent encumbered C#

Firefox has trademark issues, proprietary plugins, etc, hence GNU Icecat.

The openoffice.org situation is simply about Stallman's/FSF's low tolerance/dislike of permissive 'BSD style' licences. Old news.

Debian includes and maintains non-free software in it's repositories and makes it easy to obtain and install.

systemd fits none of the above categories, so it's easy to see why Stallman doesn't have any problem with it.

Stallman has no background in UNIX and is not a UNIX sysadmin, so the "UNIX Philosophy" argument is also irrelevant there (and someone mentioned emacs earlier in thread).

Torvalds has not come out against systemd either. Yet again people are distorting the facts and ignoring/misconstruing Torvalds' own comments. Criticising it and some of it's developers/code, is not in any way equal to opposing it.

I would urge people to do proper research and not be led by the nose by a few bored trolls trying to whip up users into a frenzy for their own entertainment.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby alansmithee » 2015-07-09 11:49

thepointystick wrote:systemd fits none of the above categories, so it's easy to see why Stallman doesn't have any problem with it.

I did not mention systemd. I merely showed the logic of rms' "there's no ethical issue" syllogism to be faulty. Therefore peremptory dismissal of criticisms of the ethics of systemd based on such logic is ungrounded, regardless whether that dismissal is from a systemd apologist or from Richard Stallman.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby buntunub » 2015-07-09 19:07

alansmithee wrote:
thepointystick wrote:systemd fits none of the above categories, so it's easy to see why Stallman doesn't have any problem with it.

I did not mention systemd. I merely showed the logic of rms' "there's no ethical issue" syllogism to be faulty. Therefore peremptory dismissal of criticisms of the ethics of systemd based on such logic is ungrounded, regardless whether that dismissal is from a systemd apologist or from Richard Stallman.


It's easy to misplace Stallman and Torvalds as leaders in the Linux world, because they are not. They follow very strict ideologies that really have nothing at all to do with systemd's purpose.

1. Systemd has an LGPL license, which fits precisely into what Stallman wants for free software. Therefore, his comments should have been predictable.
2. Torvalds cares only about his Kernel and nothing else. Again, should be no surprise when conflicts arose with systemd related projects trying to merge shoddy code into the Kernel. I really don't think Torvalds gives a f#ck about systemd or anything related to it, but he DOES care about his Kernel and wants to make sure the codebase is clean and that those who contribute to it have a good work ethic.

If you are looking for leaders in the anti-systemd movement, you need to look for the real leaders of that movement, and good luck with that. The open source ecosystem really does not do well with organized anti-software movements. It tends to operate more on the "vote with your wallet" principle. I.e. if you don't like it, don't use it.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-09 22:21

thepointystick wrote:Stallman has no background in UNIX and is not a UNIX sysadmin

Well, usually trolls are far smarter than You, cause they at least know some basics on the topic in which they are trolling.
Apparently, You were so lazy, that checking the Richard Stalman's wiki page was too hard for Ya...

Really, I'm amazed that such morons still can exist today, especially when their trolling can be so easily verified:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Manifesto

...when he was working at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, You haven't even existed.

And FYI: Richard Stallman have started GNU project only because UNIXes was completely closed and prioprietary systems at that time.

...what a jerk...
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby golinux » 2015-07-09 22:34

tomazzi wrote:
thepointystick wrote:Stallman has no background in UNIX and is not a UNIX sysadmin

Well, usually trolls are far smarter than You, cause they at least know some basics on the topic in which they are trolling.
Apparently, You were so lazy, that checking the Richard Stalman's wiki page was too hard for Ya...

Really, I'm amazed that such morons still can exist today, especially when their trolling can be so easily verified:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Manifesto

...when he was working at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, You haven't even existed.

And FYI: Richard Stallman have started GNU project only because UNIXes was completely closed and prioprietary systems at that time.

...what a jerk...

There does seem to be a flood of them lately, doesn't there . . . I suspect that this 'n00bie' is an already existing FDN member with a new 'stick' . . . oops, nick.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby thepointystick » 2015-07-09 23:04

tomazzi wrote:cause they at least know some basics on the topic in which they are trolling.
Apparently, You were so lazy, that checking the Richard Stalman's wiki page was too hard for Ya...

Perhaps you should take a break from ranting and just read Stallman's own words?

tomazzi wrote:Really, I'm amazed that such morons still can exist today, especially when their trolling can be so easily verified:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Manifesto

What has the GNU manifesto or Stallman's career got to do with this?

https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

(the word "unix" appears twice - read the paragraph)

tomazzi wrote:...when he was working at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory

And read your own links and read about what he was doing there and what he studied.

tomazzi wrote:And FYI: Richard Stallman have started GNU project only because UNIXes was completely closed and prioprietary systems at that time.

Where was that even brought up in thread or questioned? (read MY link to see why Stallman started GNU).

Also: https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html

UNIX was used as a model as users were already familiar with it. It was not a complete UNIX reimplementation (a la 'BSD). This is because Stallman was not and is not a "UNIX sysadmin" and did not set out to reimplement UNIX in it's entirety, warts and all.

tomazzi wrote:...what a jerk...

Nice - and your post is a 'knee jerk' - and an ill researched one at that. I'm the 'troll' yet you use anonymity to fling insults at strangers on the web. I haven't "trolled", I've just posted opinion, yet because it's at odds with your views, it's "trolling"? The only trolling I see here is the aforementioned "bored trolls" who are seizing on every bit of FUD imaginable to get more users on their side.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby oswaldkelso » 2015-07-09 23:19

buntunub wrote:systemd fits none of the above categories, so it's easy to see why Stallman doesn't have any problem with it.


1. Systemd has an LGPL license, which fits precisely into what Stallman wants for free software. Therefore, his comments should have been predictable.

Being a conspiracy theorist I'd look at this :evil: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/comm ... 24a067e3d8
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby tomazzi » 2015-07-09 23:51

thepointystick wrote:What has the GNU manifesto or Stallman's career got to do with this?

Just about everything?

RMS was working with UNIX OSes before most of us (including You and me) have learned about the existence of such a "word" (shortcut).
So, to put it simply: You've showed to be a moron by accusing RMS of being *not familiar* with UNIX - while this is the OS which he was starting with...

BSD *did not exist at that time*, and FreeBSD was released *after* Stallman have convinced the devs to do so...

...so please.

...I do understand that feeding trolls is generally harmful, but maybe this time it'll lead to some valuable conclusions...

oswaldkelso wrote:Being a conspiracy theorist I'd look at this :evil: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/comm ... 24a067e3d8

Take it easy - as for now, indeed You'll have to switch to a systemd-shim (although even the name is frightening), but I'm working on a *not-a-sysshitd* ;) - and I'll give an info, just after it'll be ready for testing...
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby thepointystick » 2015-07-10 08:10

tomazzi wrote:RMS was working with UNIX OSes before most of us (including You and me) have learned about the existence of such a "word" (shortcut).

You can speak for yourself in that respect but not for me. Did you read the link I provided? Do you have any citations except wikipedia articles which don't actually verify your claims?

tomazzi wrote:So, to put it simply: You've showed to be a moron by accusing RMS of being *not familiar* with UNIX - while this is the OS which he was starting with...

Did you read the link I provided? Where did I state that RMS was "not familiar with UNIX"? I said that RMS has no "background in UNIX". Which according to Stallman himself - in the link you didn't read - is true.

If I was never a blues musician and decided to learn guitar, reinvent blues and turn it into rock & roll that doesn't retroactively make me a blues musician.

I'm not knocking Stallman's achievements at all, but some of the mythology about this man is breathtaking. Don't style a man a "UNIX veteran", when he doesn't even consider himself as such.
tomazzi wrote:BSD *did not exist at that time*, and FreeBSD was released *after* Stallman have convinced the devs to do so...

...so please.

No, 'please' cut out the silly dramatics. BSD predates Linux and GNU, it was founded by someone with a 'background' in UNIX - namely Bill Joy. FreeBSD and NetBSD were forks of 386BSD. Do some basic research: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO88 ... story.html

tomazzi wrote:...I do understand that feeding trolls is generally harmful, but maybe this time it'll lead to some valuable conclusions...

tomazzi wrote:Take it easy - as for now, indeed You'll have to switch to a systemd-shim (although even the name is frightening), but I'm working on a *not-a-sysshitd* ;) - and I'll give an info, just after it'll be ready for testing...

And why should anyone take any notice of you when you spout this garbage? How exactly am I trolling and how is that not trolling...?
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-07-10 08:31

So to sum up:

Current state
uses_systemd = false
considers_systemd_free = true

Poettential future state
uses_systemd = true
considers_systemd_free = ?
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby buntunub » 2015-07-11 01:06

somebodyelse wrote:So to sum up:

Current state
uses_systemd = false
considers_systemd_free = true

Poettential future state
uses_systemd = true
considers_systemd_free = ?


Probably. Again, I really don't think Stallman cares about a software project so long as its free with an LGPL license attached. As much as the systemd haters and conspiracy theorists like to think that Red Hat/Poettering have some ideas to subvert GNU/Linux, I find it hard to find any truth to it so long as the code is open source and can be freely modified by anyone who cares to do that. What you should worry about is what seems to be the blind trust that major distros have in it though. When all is said and done, systemd is a software project, just like any other LGPL software project, but Debian shoving beta quality software on Stable users is quite another issue entirely, and that is where I take issue.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby TonyVanDam » 2015-07-13 16:37

somebodyelse wrote:Let's not make this a general systemd thread. Stallman's opinion is interesting because he has made software freedom his life's mission and some critics of systemd claim systemd is a danger to those freedoms.

Personally, if you feel systemd is a danger to software freedom, it might be a good idea to compile a level-headed report on it (without emotional/polarising words like "abomination") and address it specifically to him.

Still, isn't the history of Linux (sic) what it is because frankly RMS hasn't got a clue about this low-level system stuff?

In other words, he may be a good guardian of software freedom in terms of the parameters he has set. But he is no longer a young man and is probably not the best person to fully comprehend how the freedom of the users of computers/devices can be compromised in the age of accelerating changes we are living in.


Right THERE^ is exactly why I made this very thread. Stallman is all about freedom, yet not aware of some of the freedoms being taken away by using systemd. I smell both contradiction & BS in Stallman's recent statements.
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Re: This is what Stallman had to say about systemd. Really?!

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2015-07-13 18:39

Maybe the tentacles got to him...
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