somebodyelse wrote:The trouble is many things get confused in this debate.
Debian now has systemd as default. So we aren't in the phase of deciding whether we want it. It's there.
Now, is systemd a good thing morally? Don't know but it does satisfy RMS/FSF's/Debian's criteria for free software. Is it a good thing technically? I don't know - both positive and negative arguments are put forward.
Technically RMS/FSF has abandoned us like the Gnostic God, and gone elsewhere.
He has forked Linux -literally.
Including the kernel.
Linus sins.
somebodyelse wrote:
Did the technical committee err in selecting systemd? Well they were split 50%/50% so the chair's vote (pro-systemd) carried it. Makes you wonder why have a committee of an even number. Bdale Garbee claims to have done a lot of research into the various proposed alternatives prior to making up his mind. I have no reason not to take him at his word.
But I do.
I totally question the *need* for a new DEFAULT init system.
I do not question the possible utiility of new init systems. And I would certainly be the first to *insist* that systemd be INCLUDED in the Debian Archives, and if it wasnt would add it to my own repos, just like I always add packages that Devian deprecates - I insist on *choice*.
somebodyelse wrote:
It strikes me then that for me the choices are:
* Use Debian and use systemd (as it is out of the box now)
* Use Debian without systemd (with a bit of jiggery pokery) AND contribute code or testing support to the packages in Debian that make this possible
* Use Devuan AND contribute to making that work well (again, code and testing)
* Use BSDs/Gentoo/Slackware/Haiku
* Use Windows/OS X
#1 is problematic. I chose Debian and its model, and now it is changing to Redhat. Its of course their *right* , but I would assume they were not acting out of malice, and have not rejected their original 'principles' - and are open to constructive criticism.
#2 Is what I am doing, but need additional information before I start contributing *useful* hacks. This thread has actually added alot of *useeful* unformation and links, particularly
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... 175540922/
which lead me to
#3 This is where some key issues about Devuan were resolved - they apparently DO hack dpkg, and they DO seamlessly integrate the 90+% of the Debian archives that are init agnostic. A crucial issue, and now one that nearly has me itching to add an external repo to my sources.lst.
But not quite, I NEED a *reset* button - or at least a FAQ to restore original Jessie. Or at the very least a HOW-TO on doing a 300Gb ext4 backup *across a network* to to a USB FAT32 drive. If *everything* was confined to /boot /etc and /home /root directories everything would be fine - but /usr is symlinked across 3 drives.
#4 No guarantees they will not get infected. Though arch is an option if things get *really* bad. I can add debian packages there (apparently as source). But it takes a LONG time to compile 20,000 packages.
#5 Sadly I still need Win. Wife needs Office13 for a class, my primary ecommerce database runs only on Win, and if I need to do serious work with USB and optical media Win wins hands down. Miind you, my idea of what Win is probably not yours. I would lay serious odds on that.
somebodyelse wrote:
But, Millpond, you are not obligated to use systemd. You have made a conscious decision to use software that has systemd as a dependency. That doesn't affect your freedoms at all. Your freedom is to use an alternative and if no alternative is available to build one.
Well, that is basically what this thread us all about.
How to build a traditional system out of Debian 8.1
Devuan is certainly looking better as a fork of Debian, but I just need the above issues resolved before I make like a frog and jump on what is essentially to me: A production system.
somebodyelse wrote:
The point is that no one has let you down. I am not technically qualified to make a technical recommendation to use or not to use systemd. My concern is that there is a lot of badmouthing of the Debian project right now. And that's not acceptable. We'll be sorry when it's gone. And guess who'll be happy?
Dont mistake constructive criticism as badmouthing. Without it we would not even have the shim.
Debian is the one system I have never been able to successfully break.
When I first used it as LMDE/Testing my first reaction was to wipe my other distros.
They served no useful purpose.
I aint giving up on it without a fight.