Ecce Lennart

[somebodyelse]

And you're right, but what does complaining mean?

I don't think that anybody here is unsympathetic of people saying things like "I'm pissed off that I can't use anything without systemd!" (<- complaining).
It is when people put forward claims such as "there is a violation of software freedoms" (<- incorrect) or "Debian is in cahoots with Redhat and NSA" (<- FUD) and other childish conspiracy theories, that the complaining is no longer a justified and understandable complaint and becomes problematic and bothersome, especially when is brought up in every other thread and often with the not even subtle implication that whoever doesn't believe the conspiracy is real, is either a sheep or a moron or himself in cahoots with Poettering & Co.

It really boils down to that, at least for me.

Yes, this is basically my position. I don't care about systemd. It may well be defective, although Jessie works great for me right now.

It's when you see things that link Debian to the NSA or to Microsoft but when you dig even slightly below the surface of those stories there's nothing. Julian Assange said that all distributions with upstream dependencies (in other words, all distributions) have a risk associated with trusting those upstream sources. He used Debian as one example, presumably because it has traditionally been trusted by revolutionary hacker ninja types. But how many people I wonder have heard "Debian is pwned by the NSA" and taken it as gospel?

But if people want an alternative to systemd, they need to build it. That may sound difficult but isn't the reasoning of the anti-systemd people that they are of sufficient technical competence to see this as a bad thing?

I am uncomfortable about kdbus in the kernel but I trust Linus not to be a ****. The trouble is, Linus trusts Greg KH and I don't, since the only thing I know about him is that he used to work for SUSE, which has a relationship with Microsoft via Attachmate.

[millpond]

The trouble is many things get confused in this debate.

Debian now has systemd as default. So we aren't in the phase of deciding whether we want it. It's there.

Now, is systemd a good thing morally? Don't know but it does satisfy RMS/FSF's/Debian's criteria for free software. Is it a good thing technically? I don't know - both positive and negative arguments are put forward.

Technically RMS/FSF has abandoned us like the Gnostic God, and gone elsewhere.
He has forked Linux -literally.
Including the kernel.
Linus sins.

Did the technical committee err in selecting systemd? Well they were split 50%/50% so the chair's vote (pro-systemd) carried it. Makes you wonder why have a committee of an even number. Bdale Garbee claims to have done a lot of research into the various proposed alternatives prior to making up his mind. I have no reason not to take him at his word.

But I do.
I totally question the *need* for a new DEFAULT init system.
I do not question the possible utiility of new init systems. And I would certainly be the first to *insist* that systemd be INCLUDED in the Debian Archives, and if it wasnt would add it to my own repos, just like I always add packages that Devian deprecates - I insist on *choice*.

It strikes me then that for me the choices are:
* Use Debian and use systemd (as it is out of the box now)
* Use Debian without systemd (with a bit of jiggery pokery) AND contribute code or testing support to the packages in Debian that make this possible
* Use Devuan AND contribute to making that work well (again, code and testing)
* Use BSDs/Gentoo/Slackware/Haiku
* Use Windows/OS X

#1 is problematic. I chose Debian and its model, and now it is changing to Redhat. Its of course their *right* , but I would assume they were not acting out of malice, and have not rejected their original 'principles' - and are open to constructive criticism.

#2 Is what I am doing, but need additional information before I start contributing *useful* hacks. This thread has actually added alot of *useeful* unformation and links, particularly
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... 175540922/
which lead me to

#3 This is where some key issues about Devuan were resolved - they apparently DO hack dpkg, and they DO seamlessly integrate the 90+% of the Debian archives that are init agnostic. A crucial issue, and now one that nearly has me itching to add an external repo to my sources.lst.

But not quite, I NEED a *reset* button - or at least a FAQ to restore original Jessie. Or at the very least a HOW-TO on doing a 300Gb ext4 backup *across a network* to to a USB FAT32 drive. If *everything* was confined to /boot /etc and /home /root directories everything would be fine - but /usr is symlinked across 3 drives.


#4 No guarantees they will not get infected. Though arch is an option if things get *really* bad. I can add debian packages there (apparently as source). But it takes a LONG time to compile 20,000 packages.


#5 Sadly I still need Win. Wife needs Office13 for a class, my primary ecommerce database runs only on Win, and if I need to do serious work with USB and optical media Win wins hands down. Miind you, my idea of what Win is probably not yours. I would lay serious odds on that.

But, Millpond, you are not obligated to use systemd. You have made a conscious decision to use software that has systemd as a dependency. That doesn't affect your freedoms at all. Your freedom is to use an alternative and if no alternative is available to build one.

Well, that is basically what this thread us all about.
How to build a traditional system out of Debian 8.1
Devuan is certainly looking better as a fork of Debian, but I just need the above issues resolved before I make like a frog and jump on what is essentially to me: A production system.

The point is that no one has let you down. I am not technically qualified to make a technical recommendation to use or not to use systemd. My concern is that there is a lot of badmouthing of the Debian project right now. And that's not acceptable. We'll be sorry when it's gone. And guess who'll be happy?

Dont mistake constructive criticism as badmouthing. Without it we would not even have the shim.
Debian is the one system I have never been able to successfully break.
When I first used it as LMDE/Testing my first reaction was to wipe my other distros.
They served no useful purpose.

I aint giving up on it without a fight.

[millpond]

Fortunately RMS had already thought to a solution for our headache: Daemon managing Daemons

Which leads right to
http://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/

The Holy Grail.
But one must be pure of heart.....

[Sarge-in-charge]

And that's perfectly fine, but doesn't RedHat have user forums?

I guess so. But then, I am still running on Squeeze.

[buntunub]

I would not call it a conspiracy, but to me it is clear an important, if not the main, factor behind the decision to adopt systemd is the desire Debian's powers-that-be have to keep Debian a Gnome distribution. Which, of course, raises questions about the project's vision of the future.

I think you know probably better than I that there are reasons for this, none of which have anything to do with conspiracy, and everything to do with practicality and sheer, unfettered laziness. It has everything to do with the DDs and maintainers. There simply is a much larger, more vocal crowd in the Debian Gnome camp. Why the Gnome project went whole hog into systemd is beyond me, but there again you have Devs making the decisions. This is also a contributory factor, because in my extensive experience working with Software Engineers, they should be the absolute last people to decide on things like UI design and application usability/customization. They really should just be taking their marching orders from folks who understand how Humans think and behave long-term. As a result of the status quo, you have modern Gnome 3 and Unity, which are probably OK for mobile platforms, but abysmal for Desktop use. Don't even get me started on the bafoonery of Windows 8 and 10, which are yet another clear example of "Devs gone wild". I guess another way to put it is, why would you trust a software engineer to design a human usable UI when they can't even figure out how to color coordinate their day to day clothing?.. And while they may be in a better position to decide on things like systemd, the same concept applies there as well, because again, Devs tend not to think about the long-term consequences of the decisions they make when it comes to things like this. They usually only consider immediate solutions that best fit their needs, and leave the political and long-term consequences for the rest of us to live with.

[spacex]

This is also a contributory factor, because in my extensive experience working with Software Engineers, they should be the absolute last people to decide on things like UI design and application usability/customization. They really should just be taking their marching orders from folks who understand how Humans think and behave long-term

And you think that devs would like to spend their free-time taking marching orders? No sane person would ever develop something under terms like that. Not for free. That approach can only work with hired developers. Are you going to pay them?

[buntunub]

This is also a contributory factor, because in my extensive experience working with Software Engineers, they should be the absolute last people to decide on things like UI design and application usability/customization. They really should just be taking their marching orders from folks who understand how Humans think and behave long-term

And you think that devs would like to spend their free-time taking marching orders? No sane person would ever develop something under terms like that. Not for free. That approach can only work with hired developers. Are you going to pay them?

This statement makes me think that you believe this is not happening already?.. It's been going on for many years. Not much software of any kind is currently being developed solely for free, including the many bits and pieces that make up the GNU/Linux world. Sure, I know a lot of developers contribute their time to work on some projects here and there, and there are fewer who devote much more free time to some projects. However, projects like systemd and many, many, many others which now have vast influence in the Linux world were developed by mostly paid programmers with an agenda driven by Corporate interests. So yeah, that's happening, and yeah, programmers are marching to the beat of someone elses drum. This is pretty standard stuff here.

The problem is that on many if not most of these projects that decisions on UI design and usability are left to the developers, who are mostly clueless about how this should be done. I have read here and there that some studies on usability were done by Canonical and possibly Red Hat, but who knows how much of that was implemented, if any, and I think its almost none of it judging by the latest Ubuntu releases.

Anyway, that is just the side point. The real point I was trying to make is that software developers tend to do what they do best, which is write lines of code and cackle in glee when validation tests pass and things actually work. They tend not to think or even care about the larger impact of the end results of their creations on the larger LInuxshpere. Why should they?

[spacex]

@buntunub

To some degree you are obviously correct, as far as the big ones are concerned, and no doubt, major changes are driven trough by commercial interests. But the principle remains. Nobody can be forced to develop anything. Obviously, somebody can be "bought", but that's another debate.

But to be honest, I'm closing my eyes and ears to what's happening in linux these days. I prefer pretending it isn't happening.

[somebodyelse]

I've reached a point of systemd debate fatigue. I simply don't want to waste any more energy on it.

[edbarx]

When GRUB2 was released, like many, I was shocked to learn it needed scripts to properly update grub.cfg, and that the latter file, could not be edited by hand. However, till this very day, I am using grub2 the way I deem best fit for my needs: I am still editing grub.cfg and I still refrain from using scripts to add more operating systems. The 'irony' is, grub2 works without problems as I can boot all OSs installed.

I dare say, the same will apply to the infamous OS-initialiser. At the end, if Devuan fails, it will be yet another coding project...

If I write a custom OS-initialiser it will definitely be the minimum for my needs. Furthermore, if overlaying software fails to run because of missing libraries, I will create fakes for those. There are specific development tools to investigate which functions are exported by libraries and which functions are imported by both libraries and executables. For further information see my howtos.

[Sarge-in-charge]

As a result of the status quo, you have modern Gnome 3 and Unity, which are probably OK for mobile platforms, but abysmal for Desktop use. Don't even get me started on the bafoonery of Windows 8 and 10, which are yet another clear example of "Devs gone wild".

Gnome 3 and Unity are vomit-inducing contraptions. Windows 8 and 10, the same thing.

This decade is going to be hell for the Desktop. Mobile is king, though.

I just had hoped the server arena was going to go through unscathed, and then systemd and kdbus happened.

The horror, the horror!

[spacex]

As a result of the status quo, you have modern Gnome 3 and Unity, which are probably OK for mobile platforms, but abysmal for Desktop use. Don't even get me started on the bafoonery of Windows 8 and 10, which are yet another clear example of "Devs gone wild".

Gnome 3 and Unity are vomit-inducing contraptions. Windows 8 and 10, the same thing.

This decade is going to be hell for the Desktop. Mobile is king, though.

I just had hoped the server arena was going to go through unscathed, and then systemd and kdbus happened.

The horror, the horror!

Nah, W10 was fine as soon as I got rid of the menu entries for the apps, and added fullversion program for chrome, vlc, gimp and you name it. Works fine for me. The only tiles present, are the tiles that I use. But then again, I'm only using it for gaming, so I had to take advantage of the offer. That way my gaming needs is covered for the next 10 years or so.

[somebodyelse]

My gaming needs are covered by icebreaker and 2048-qt

[Sarge-in-charge]

My gaming needs are covered by icebreaker and 2048-qt

My gaming need are covered with MAME and DOSbox. But I am old skool.

[Randicus]

I do not choose my OS based on games. And I definitely would not buy a copy of Windows just to play games. Since OpenBSD is not a gaming system, I make due with the occasional game of tiles, for some reason incorrectly call mahjongg.

[buntunub]

My gaming needs are covered by icebreaker and 2048-qt

Steam now has a Linux port that runs great on Wheezy. There are now so many games you can get on Steam that either have native Linux ports or run on Linux with no issues now that nobody can say Linux does not have great gaming support. If you have a gaming rig on Linux and can spare paying for a native Linux game, give Kerbal Space Program (64 bit Linux version) a try. It has better support on Linux than it does on Windows and has all the best elements of modern day gaming including incredible graphics.

[spacex]

I do not choose my OS based on games. And I definitely would not buy a copy of Windows just to play games. Since OpenBSD is not a gaming system, I make due with the occasional game of tiles, for some reason incorrectly call mahjongg.

I wouldn't buy a copy of windows either, but I have a crapload of licenses from my giant stack of laptops and desktop-pc's. I purchase defect ones and fix them up, just for fun. Some I set up in my network at home, some I give away, and some are just used for parts, and then it's only the license key that gets reused.

The current license on my self-built gaming-rig, is from this new Lenovo Laptop which came with a W8-license. Obviously I wiped it clean and installed Linux, but then I had a W8-license to spare

But actually, to be quite frank. If I was single, I would have stopped playing the game that requires Windows, just to get rid of Windows for good. But the wifey wont have it. She's demands Windows on at least one of them, so she can play sims, sstream netflix and use Photoshop.

But it's all fine for me. I have 3 laptops in tip top shape, and two self-built stationary desktop-pc's, so I'll manage to live with Windows on one of them. If I'm not gaming or streaming to my big-screen, then I prefer casually using the laptops halfway laying on the couch. Lazy you know. I never sit straight behind a desk. Not even in the office. I tilt my chair all the way back, and put the feet on the desk. Thank God for wireless keyboards

[somebodyelse]

Actually, there are four reasons I don't have Steam:
1. My graphics card is a lowly intel. Since Frogatto runs poorly, there are unlikely to be many Steam games useable.
2. Steam is 32-bit on Debian. I have 64-bit. I'm not going to install a whole other architecture just for occasional game use.
3. It's non-free. I have non-free active for the broadcom wireless driver but other than that I use vrms to make sure everything comes from main. I don't even have virtualbox, which is now in contrib. RMS would be proud !
4. I'm just not a gamer. Don't blame the lack of games - blame the non-player.

It's not a Linux vs. Windows vs. Playstation thing. The only computers I have are 100% Linux now.

[spacex]

My gaming needs are covered by icebreaker and 2048-qt

My gaming need are covered with MAME and DOSbox. But I am old skool.

Doesn't help me much. There is only one game ever made that interest me, and that is TrackMania. It sort of worked in Steam for a while, and I had my hopes up, but nope... Not good enough. No point playing it with bad graphics and missing functionality.

So Windows it is..., but that's no big deal. I always multiboot anyway, and if there are a windows partition among the 5-6 linux installation I have at that computer at any given time, then it's just fine. Heck, sometimes I have more than 10 installs at the same time, on the same computer, and if I add all my computers together, there could be 30 different OS and distros installed at the same time, so I should be able to live with one windows install to play trackmania

[arochester]

I am locking this thread. The last several posts have nothing to do with the original post...