Ecce Lennart

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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby Sarge-in-charge » 2015-08-09 13:05

millpond wrote:What we have here is a very proper talmudic debate, with RMS/Moses as the origin our laws and now for us rebbes to *interpret* them for either social utility, or to the letters of the tablets. The genius of their system was to determine whether the rules served the public interest, and would rule against Moses and even higher if they represented actions that thretened to community. Common sense trumped divine law.

Common sense tells us to not have a hot-plug based PID1, I don't want the state of my servers to dynamically change because of hot-plug generated, or d-bus received, events.

I want my servers to either stay at the runlevel/state I have defined, or crash. I don't want them to be dancing to unknown and undetermined tunes, you know.

Systemd can be kosher according to Free Software Guidelines, and still be utter rubbish.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby edbarx » 2015-08-09 14:41

I want my servers to either stay at the runlevel/state I have defined, or crash. I don't want them to be dancing to unknown and undetermined tunes, you know.

-1 for systemd
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby millpond » 2015-08-09 20:19

Sarge-in-charge wrote:
millpond wrote:What we have here is a very proper talmudic debate, with RMS/Moses as the origin our laws and now for us rebbes to *interpret* them for either social utility, or to the letters of the tablets. The genius of their system was to determine whether the rules served the public interest, and would rule against Moses and even higher if they represented actions that thretened to community. Common sense trumped divine law.

Common sense tells us to not have a hot-plug based PID1, I don't want the state of my servers to dynamically change because of hot-plug generated, or d-bus received, events.

I want my servers to either stay at the runlevel/state I have defined, or crash. I don't want them to be dancing to unknown and undetermined tunes, you know.

Systemd can be kosher according to Free Software Guidelines, and still be utter rubbish.



This is the crazy part about systemd.
Its primary risk is to servers, and most seem to be Redhat based (CentOS apparently a favorite).
And in fact there seemed to have been a mass of complaints from sysadmins.

Lennart thinks because his baby boots faster it has to be *better*.
And Redhat was (in)famous its ancient but unbreakable server software.

Its similar to someone putting screen doors on submarines to improve ventilation efficiency.

As a lowly user, my objection to it was that it broke some scripts. Something I consider a mortal sin, enough for Billy Gates to be standing on LPs shoulders in the 9th circle.

But I can just imagine someone running a server farm. Fully optimized. And then some propellorhead comes along and decides to *update*.
Also, the real last straw here was binary logs. I dont think Lennart created the idea, but it is antithetical to everything that I define as Linux. The beauty of Linux is that I dont need to be a programmer to use it, and use it effectively. A few bash or shell scripts should be everything that I should ever need to customize the system. And while I am sure someone at CPAN will come along and make some perl modules to deal with the new crap, the line has been crossed.

There is however, one point that needs correction about Systemd. When we say its monolithic, what is meant is in scope and direction. Its cut from one wafer (monosilicaceous???) - there are of course many components to it, and ever growing. That is why many of us regard it as not a symbiont, but as a cancer.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby golinux » 2015-08-09 20:39

millpond . . . I'm actually starting to like you. Never thought that would ahppen . . .
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-10 06:02

Lennart thinks because his baby boots faster it has to be *better*.

No. In fact, in spite of all the insinuations of cloak and dagger, the arrogant Mr Poettering has at least been transparent in the systemd project's goals:
http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how ... stems.html

He is not obliged to make software to make you happy. All these unwritten laws about how when person x sits down to write a piece of software they have to carefully balance all the thoughts and feelings and tastes of any non-paying user ever. It's like this indignation about Mir. Really, if you've ever got wound up about Ubuntu/Canonical developing software for itself that suits its own purpose, please kick yourself. And not just a soft playground kick. A really good hard kick to make you think twice about the morality you unreasonably and arrogantly impose upon other people who owe you nothing.

As for the distinction between user and developer: the kind of "user" who is non-technical and therefore cannot enjoy half of RMS' freedoms, has no problem with systemd. Systemd may make a classical sys admin's life more difficult, whether on account of change resistance or any technical defects it may or may not have. However, for a user, who uses his/her computer simply to access software and do non-programming/non-system-administration things, systemd is not a problem. It is in conjecture/insinuation land but we don't care about that place.

I am currently running Debian Jessie and it's wonderful. It's not wonderful because of systemd. But having systemd hasn't changed the quality of Debian. Don't allow your feelings about systemd to colour your judgment of Debian.

Systemd may be bad for server administration but it is odd then that it has been adopted by Red Hat and SUSE, whose business is (largely) linked to servers.
Systemd may be a way for creating back doors for government agencies. But to date, there is no evidence of ANY kind. Only insinuations in article titles. "It's so big, it must be hiding something. Nudge nudge."

As for MS and their Window thingy, we didn't care about svchost. No, really. Precisely zero shits were given about svchost. That was never the problem. We cared about their alleged business practises and their alleged treatment of the user, none of which is replicated by systemd. And no, it doesn't make anti-virus inevitable likely.

Note that Debian 8 does not require me or lead me to sign in to a remote account. Nor does it come with crapware (except for systemd, yuk yuk). Quality software is available from the repositories. These things matter.

Does systemd suit your needs? No? Well, provide code to Debian to make it easier to work without systemd or help Devuan.

But stop (wittingly or unwittingly) working for Microsoft with all these "you may as well use Windows" statements/arguments. And stop moving the goalposts on software freedom. In all the ways that matter and in all the ways they have ever claimed or committed to, Debian remains free (as in freedom) software. Again, no one is obliged to develop his/her software in a direction that pleases you. And they don't become better people for doing that.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby millpond » 2015-08-10 07:18

somebodyelse wrote:
Lennart thinks because his baby boots faster it has to be *better*.

No. In fact, in spite of all the insinuations of cloak and dagger, the arrogant Mr Poettering has at least been transparent in the systemd project's goals:
http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how ... stems.html

He is not obliged to make software to make you happy. All these unwritten laws about how when person x sits down to write a piece of software they have to carefully balance all the thoughts and feelings and tastes of any non-paying user ever. It's like this indignation about Mir. Really, if you've ever got wound up about Ubuntu/Canonical developing software for itself that suits its own purpose, please kick yourself. And not just a soft playground kick. A really good hard kick to make you think twice about the morality you unreasonably and arrogantly impose upon other people who owe you nothing.
.....
But stop (wittingly or unwittingly) working for Microsoft with all these "you may as well use Windows" statements/arguments. And stop moving the goalposts on software freedom. In all the ways that matter and in all the ways they have ever claimed or committed to, Debian remains free (as in freedom) software. Again, no one is obliged to develop his/her software in a direction that pleases you. And they don't become better people for doing that.


I believe you have missed some key points of what I was saying:
I am in all actuality *not* against the idea of systemd, and Lennart has my full blessing to write and publish all the code he wants.
I am not trying to inveigh againt the freedom of developers.
But I vehemently object when their cyber-gadgets start disabling and rendering nonfunctional parts of my system.

At that point they are infringing on *my* freedoms. The decent thing would have been to offer a viable choice, as the shim hack still leaves some pieces broken.

The ultimate issue is that traditional debian has changed. And I must change too. I have started with yanking *all* sites from my sources.list. I have no intentions of *removing* systemd -just hacking around it. It seems to have *some* useful functions, and is OK as long as its gelded.

Devuan is alpha and as I use this as a production system for ecommerce I dare take no risks.

Today I fired up and got working a 64 bit Win7 machine for the lil lady. First time I ever fully booted to either W7 or 64 bit.
I dont like it. Tomorrow I will yank out about 75% of its services, and I will dislike it a little less.
My goal is to hack it to Win2k, like my XP machines. Mostly opensource and Posix.

If Debian keeps goosestepping behind LP and the commercial/DOD crowd, and does stooopid things like deprecate /etc I will slowly but surely fail to discern the difference between the two. Perhaps its the dollar store glasses... Afterall, its now *free* software.

I have the Debian i386 archives, frozen in time. I can always pick and choose and backport.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby millpond » 2015-08-10 07:23

golinux wrote:millpond . . . I'm actually starting to like you. Never thought that would ahppen . . .


In the morning you'll reconsider.

They all do...
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-10 07:38

somebodyelse wrote:As for MS and their Window thingy, we didn't care about svchost. No, really. Precisely zero shits were given about svchost. That was never the problem. We cared about their alleged business practises and their alleged treatment of the user, none of which is replicated by systemd. And no, it doesn't make anti-virus inevitable likely.
It is interesting that you choose to speak for everyone. True, many people dislike Microsoft's business practices, but also, many people dislike the Windows model. They may not know about svchost, but they do know that Windows is an integrated whole without choice. One office suite, one media player, etc. Those people like the freedom Linux and BSD give them to choose from a variety of applications, which of course is made possible by the modular Unix design. The fear many have is that systemd is replacing that modular design with a monolithic one. systemd does not replicate Microsoft's business practices, but to many people it appears to be replicating their design philosophy.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-10 09:31

It is interesting that you choose to speak for everyone.

My apologies.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-10 09:42

The trouble is many things get confused in this debate.

Debian now has systemd as default. So we aren't in the phase of deciding whether we want it. It's there.

Now, is systemd a good thing morally? Don't know but it does satisfy RMS/FSF's/Debian's criteria for free software. Is it a good thing technically? I don't know - both positive and negative arguments are put forward.

Did the technical committee err in selecting systemd? Well they were split 50%/50% so the chair's vote (pro-systemd) carried it. Makes you wonder why have a committee of an even number. Bdale Garbee claims to have done a lot of research into the various proposed alternatives prior to making up his mind. I have no reason not to take him at his word.

It strikes me then that for me the choices are:
* Use Debian and use systemd (as it is out of the box now)
* Use Debian without systemd (with a bit of jiggery pokery) AND contribute code or testing support to the packages in Debian that make this possible
* Use Devuan AND contribute to making that work well (again, code and testing)
* Use BSDs/Gentoo/Slackware/Haiku
* Use Windows/OS X

But, Millpond, you are not obligated to use systemd. You have made a conscious decision to use software that has systemd as a dependency. That doesn't affect your freedoms at all. Your freedom is to use an alternative and if no alternative is available to build one.

The point is that no one has let you down. I am not technically qualified to make a technical recommendation to use or not to use systemd. My concern is that there is a lot of badmouthing of the Debian project right now. And that's not acceptable. We'll be sorry when it's gone. And guess who'll be happy?
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-10 10:04

I believe people who are disappointed or unhappy with the decision are justified in complaining about it and criticising the project. For a while. Then a decision must be made: accept the changes or move on.

somebodyelse wrote:* Use Debian without systemd (with a bit of jiggery pokery)
Until systemd is the only option. Then the complaining will start again.
AND contribute code or testing support to the packages in Debian that make this possible
But will the project accept the work done by users to avoid systemd, when systemd is the future of the project?
* Use Devuan AND contribute to making that work well (again, code and testing)
That is an option, but personally I am not confident they will succeed in their stated goals. (Too ambitious.)
* Use .../Gentoo/Slackware/...
Although it raises the question; will they be able to hold back the juggernaught?

In the end, most people who are complaining will eventually accept the new order, but for now impotent whining makes them feel better.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby mor » 2015-08-10 12:42

And you're right, but what does complaining mean?

I don't think that anybody here is unsympathetic of people saying things like "I'm pissed off that I can't use anything without systemd!" (<- complaining).
It is when people put forward claims such as "there is a violation of software freedoms" (<- incorrect) or "Debian is in cahoots with Redhat and NSA" (<- FUD) and other childish conspiracy theories, that the complaining is no longer a justified and understandable complaint and becomes problematic and bothersome, especially when is brought up in every other thread and often with the not even subtle implication that whoever doesn't believe the conspiracy is real, is either a sheep or a moron or himself in cahoots with Poettering & Co.

It really boils down to that, at least for me.
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby Sarge-in-charge » 2015-08-10 19:44

Randicus wrote:In the end, most people who are complaining will eventually accept the new order, but for now impotent whining makes them feel better.

I have accepted the new order: There Is Only One Linux, And It Is Spelled RedHat. Then, there are RedHat clones...
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby spacex » 2015-08-10 21:31

Sarge-in-charge wrote:
Randicus wrote:In the end, most people who are complaining will eventually accept the new order, but for now impotent whining makes them feel better.

I have accepted the new order: There Is Only One Linux, And It Is Spelled RedHat. Then, there are RedHat clones...


And that's perfectly fine, but doesn't RedHat have user forums?
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Re: Ecce Lennart

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-10 22:56

Is it a free support forum or does access come as part of the paid customer service?
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