systemd troll?

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systemd troll?

Postby mittgreen » 2015-08-26 09:47

I have some questions.

1. Why if you speak about systemd in a negative way, you immediately become accused of being a troll?

2. Why systemd fanbois don't give us any other arguments except for "faster boot time"? The other "arguments" are fallacies.

3. Who the heck decided to include it almost everywhere if it's so controversial?

4. Why sysadmins and "server people" (pretty much everyone of which opposes systemd), who started using Debian years before I (and 90% of systemd fanbois) was born, lost their right to vote to the *desktop* people?

5. Why they left us no choice? Use it or get out.

6. Why for some package maintainers systemd dependency is mandatory?

*Illuminati* ? :shock:

I understand why kernel developers mostly don't care about systemd (well, unless ... https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and-the-impotent-rage-against-systemd/), they have some work to be done.

And yes, I use Debian (now Devuan, sometimes switching to stuff like CRUX or Slackware or BSDs) for only a year and I am a desktop user, so you may want to tell me that "boo, noob, you don't know anything". It's not an argument.

And yes, I know you don't like this topic. Some even hate. My own observation: pro-systemd people mostly hate it, anti-systemd people can always speak about it.

Now I would like YOU (yes, YOU, pro-systemd people) to tell me reasons WHY I should use systemd. Because I already know WHY I shouldn't. And WHY I don't want to. And please don't tell me, that "I use systemd and have no problems". It is not an argument. It sounds like "I drink a gallon of whiskey each day and I have no problems with alcohol".

Thank you
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2015-08-26 10:04

Why do you use libc6?
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby Randicus » 2015-08-26 10:19

mittgreen wrote:I have some questions.
3. Who the heck decided to include it almost everywhere if it's so controversial?
4. Why sysadmins and "server people" ... lost their right to vote to the *desktop* people?
5. Why they left us no choice? Use it or get out.
6. Why for some package maintainers systemd dependency is mandatory?

The answers, or arguments both ways, can be found by doing a little reading. There are plenty of places to find old discussions, debates and arguments, as well as real information.

Now I would like YOU (yes, YOU, pro-systemd people) to tell me reasons WHY I should use systemd.
There are not enough systemd threads already? If the answers you want are not in any of the information sources or the countless threads already in existence all over the internet, how will starting yet another thread provide the answers?

systemd troll?
Hmm. Let's see.
Joined the board two days ago.
Forth post is starting another systemd flame-bait thread.
The answer would appear to be yes.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby mittgreen » 2015-08-26 10:22

dilberts_left_nut wrote:Why do you use libc6?

Debian is a GNU/Linux operating system. GNU C Library is an official part of GNU project. libc6 has almost complete POSIX standarts compilance. It is a core component of many distributions, even of BSDs, and has been in GNU since the word GNU appeared I guess (it was first written in the 80s).

The question is irrelevant. I may ask you why you use coreutils, binutils, GNU/Linux itself. Finally, a fallacy: you don't see people each day complaining how bad GNU C Library is. And how "not UNIX philosophy" it is.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby mittgreen » 2015-08-26 10:30

Randicus wrote:
mittgreen wrote:I have some questions.
3. Who the heck decided to include it almost everywhere if it's so controversial?
4. Why sysadmins and "server people" ... lost their right to vote to the *desktop* people?
5. Why they left us no choice? Use it or get out.
6. Why for some package maintainers systemd dependency is mandatory?

The answers, or arguments both ways, can be found by doing a little reading. There are plenty of places to find old discussions, debates and arguments, as well as real information.

Now I would like YOU (yes, YOU, pro-systemd people) to tell me reasons WHY I should use systemd.
There are not enough systemd threads already? If the answers you want are not in any of the information sources or the countless threads already in existence all over the internet, how will starting yet another thread provide the answers?

systemd troll?
Hmm. Let's see.
Joined the board two days ago.
Forth post is starting another systemd flame-bait thread.
The answer would appear to be yes.


I am some kind of refugee, that's why I registered here only a couple of days ago. I couldn't get it all these crap and started own discussion. And I am spending many hours watching the systemd rants. I yet couldn't find the answers to these actual questions. Or maybe I have found but still don't understand. Or maybe I am simply try show my opinion and learn yours.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-26 10:34

Debian has systemd now. If you want to do something useful, make it work better in Debian or help build alternatives such as Devuan. Not everyone is in either of your two camps. For me it is a system feature like Grub or Xorg.

Linux works so much better when people put their energy into going where they want to go rather than stopping someone else going where they don't want them to go.

Refugee from where?
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby mittgreen » 2015-08-26 10:47

somebodyelse wrote:Debian has systemd now. If you want to do something useful, make it work better in Debian or help build alternatives such as Devuan. Not everyone is in either of your two camps. For me it is a system feature like Grub or Xorg.

Linux works so much better when people put their energy into going where they want to go rather than stopping someone else going where they don't want them to go.

Refugee from where?


From other forums.

Yet there are working alternatives for GRUB (which is a part of GNU) and Xorg which does not violate the whole system. Some actually use the same fallacies about Xorg and all that stuff. It doesn't matter in this case.

http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/fudcon-gnomeasia.html

Sometimes we need to stop some people and whole projects. Or give up, shut our mouths and go away or conform. But this is hypocrisy.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby somebodyelse » 2015-08-26 11:03

Stop, troll. Stop, now.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby arochester » 2015-08-26 11:06

Systemd might be default but but the Jessie Repositories still have sysvinit, Upstart, runit and OpenRC is alternatives.

If anyone is saying that packages are now available which are systemd dependant can they please name them?

It might help if people, instead of generally criticising systemd, could say specifically where it causes problems and work to improve it.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby mittgreen » 2015-08-26 11:32

arochester wrote:Systemd might be default but but the Jessie Repositories still have sysvinit, Upstart, runit and OpenRC is alternatives.

If anyone is saying that packages are now available which are systemd dependant can they please name them?

It might help if people, instead of generally criticising systemd, could say specifically where it causes problems and work to improve it.


You cannot get rid of systemd completely. Run apt-cache showpkg libsystemd0 and look for reverse dependencies. And it will show you only straight dependencies, not the whole tree. Now try to remove libsystemd0 from your system and watch what it is going to remove. And this what causes problems. And also tons of ridiculous bugs since the very beginning. And developers' approach to fix bugs. This what causes problems. And unportability. And developers' approach to portability. I am here not to criticise systemd, I know its faults. Read my first post in this thread, seriously. You haven't answered my questions yet but it seems they are very unlikely to be answered as far as I see.
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Re: systemd troll?

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2015-08-26 11:41

Post subject: Re: systemd troll?

Yes.
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