Debian Social Contract - Art.4 and "needs of the users"

[Starborn]

(Alright, I hope this belongs in this forum.)

This link:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=122528

and this link:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions ... page2.html

got me curious about - particularly - article 4 of the "Debian Social Contract".

And reading article 4:

Code: Select all

[i]4. Our priorities are our users and free software

We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities.[etc][/i]

makes me wonder in what way the Debian Developers know what the needs of their “users and the free software community" is, and how the “needs of their users and the free software community” influences the decisions they make on how Debian should look and function.

Take, for example Gnome 3 (no, I will not start whining about Gnome 3). It is chosen as the main DE. I loved Gnome 2, because it was very user-friendly and worked flawlessly (and because KDE, with its bottom-left menu, reminded me of that other, awful OS from Redmond). Gnome 3, in comparison, I find quite user-unfriendly to work with.
(As a new Gnome 3 user, there are many decisions that were taken to make Gnome 3 work and look the way it does, which I just don't understand).

-oo-

Why did the Debian Developers think that Gnome 3 is the "best" (my quotation marks) DE for the “needs of their users and the free software community”?

How did the Debian Developers reach the conclusion that Gnome 3 is the "best" (again: my quotation marks) DE to serve the "needs of their users and the free software community"? (When Gnome 3 clearly is not the "best" DE for my needs and that of so many other Linux users.)

Or was Gnome 3 chosen, because... well... there aren't many other DE's that are as "good" as Gnome 3 (like, for example, KDE)?

On my one-month-old "jessie" install, I mainly use LXDE instead of Gnome 3, because of reasons that I will not name here because it is not the right place.

-oo-

Who is meant by “users and the free software community”? Am I, as a “plain vanilla” Debian/Linux user, meant, or are rather Linux software writers meant?

Can someone with more knowledge shed some light on this?

[Head_on_a_Stick]

https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/tasksel ... bb1d9ee6d7
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktop/R ... ion/Jessie

Correct decision IMO, GNOME 3.14 rocks!

[dasein]

Early Debian may or may not have been genuinely "user-centric." (Can't say, since I've been using Debian for <5 years.)

Today's Debian isn't even close. These days, Article 4 of the DSC is just an historical remnant, utterly devoid of meaning.

(One person's opinion.)

Purely pedantic PS: Panels are movable (indeed, entirely optional) in both xfce and KDE (especially KDE).

[Starborn]

https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/tasksel ... bb1d9ee6d7
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktop/R ... ion/Jessie

Correct decision IMO, GNOME 3.14 rocks!

Really?

- Why did they put the Shut-down button and the Log-out button at different positions? I think that does not make sense. In LXDE they are all nicely in a list/window under each other, which makes a lot more sense, if you ask me.

- I don't know if this is Gnome 3; it may be a purely Gedit thing (the text editor), but why did "they"(?) put the "File" menu icon at the top right, when it has been at the top left for about 100 years in every single program? I can't count the times I moved the mouse pointer to the top left, only to realise the "File" menu is now at the top right. Long live Leafpad ).
And Gedit no longer has a menu bar? Really?

(At work there is MS Office 2010; I "hate" that ribbon. I replaced the Windows 7 Wordpad version by the one from good ole Vista. It may not be allowed, but both Microsoft and IT can bite me.). I use OOo Portable instead of MS Office 2010. I so miss our trustworthy SLED 10 Linux, which was replaced by Windows 7 last year. In that past year as "local sysadmin" I've had to call IT more often than in the 7 years we had SLED Linux).

- And then there is the endless discussion about removing the minimize and maximize buttons in Gnome 3 (which luckily can be brought back). I am (was) supposed to drag windows that are in the way to another desktop (and that, while there isn't (wasn't) a taskbar/panel at the bottom. (Yes, I know there are many ways to move a window.) May I politely roll my eyes?)

I hope I am not ranting?

-oo-

I know that it all is just a matter of getting-used-to. But, first of all, is that not the contrary of what Linux stands for? I "have to get used" to how Gnome 3 makes me work? I have tried "to get used to" things for way too long in that-other-OS to now have to get used to things in Gnome 3 (which I don't have to, thanks to the Gnome Shell Extentions - whoever came up with that deserves a statue on every continent and free beer forever).

But you are right, Head_on_a_Stick: Gnome 3 rocks--now that it looks and functions like Gnome 2 again

Seriously, are the Gnome 3 developers the same ones that wrote Gnome 2? That is almost hard to believe.

[Starborn]

Early Debian may or may not have been genuinely "user-centric."

Today's Debian isn't even close. These days, Article 4 of the DSC is just an historical remnant, utterly devoid of meaning.

(One person's opinion.)

Do the Debian devs read this forum (and your comment)? Perhaps the Debian Social Contract needs updating?

Purely pedantic PS: Panels are movable (indeed, entirely optional) in both xfce and KDE (especially KDE).

Panels! I want panels! I need panels! I can't function without them! Ahem.

I never liked KDE much. Dunno know why. Maybe 'cos it reminds me of Windows. I wonder what Freud would say about that! Isn't it either KDE or Gnome?

I have run Xubuntu alongside Ubuntu for several years. LXDE feels smoother than xfce on this Pentium dual core machine I am at now. When it comes to speed, I know nothing that beats Fluxbox.

[dasein]

Do the Debian devs read this forum (and your comment)?

No. After all, this is just a user forum, and Debian is a self-proclaimed oligarchy. Users don't matter, and haven't for quite some little time.

Purely pedantic PS: Panels are movable (indeed, entirely optional) in both xfce and KDE (especially KDE).

Panels! I want panels! I need panels! I can't function without them

You can have 'em, in either xfce or KDE. My point (again, purely pedantic and therefore tangential) was this: to diss KDE because its default placement of the panel is at the bottom of the screen, or because the menu defaults to bottom-left, more or less misses the entire point of KDE (which is customization on steroids). No one need justify an individual preference for one DE over another, but dismissing xfce or KDE over default panel placement just isn't relevant.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

Debian is a self-proclaimed oligarchy

Debian is a do-ocracy.

EDIT: Link: http://upsilon.cc/~zack/talks/2013/2013 ... enoble.pdf

If you wish to change it, get hacking

[dasein]

Debian is a self-proclaimed oligarchy

Debian is a do-ocracy.

"Do-ocracy" (n): a misspelling of oligarchy.

And not by any stretch of the imagination anywhere close to "we place the needs of our users first" (which was the original question).

(Just sayin')

[dilberts_left_nut]

But then you come to the definition of 'user'.

[dasein]

But then you come to the definition of 'user'.

Only if one is comfortable with the notion that Debian has roughly 1000 users worldwide.

[spacex]

But then you come to the definition of 'user'.

Only if one is comfortable with the notion that Debian has roughly 1000 users worldwide.

+1 Spot on

[Starborn]

Panels! I want panels! I need panels! I can't function without them

You can have 'em, in either xfce or KDE. My point (again, purely pedantic and therefore tangential) was this: to diss KDE because its default placement of the panel is at the bottom of the screen, or because the menu defaults to bottom-left, more or less misses the entire point of KDE (which is customization on steroids). No one need justify an individual preference for one DE over another, but dismissing xfce or KDE over default panel placement just isn't relevant.

I did and do not want to reject any DE. All OS's (and their DE), from Windows to OSX to Linux, that I have used always have had panels (taskbars or whatever one wishes to call them). Then I saw Gnome 3, which only has a (quite useless) taskbar at the top, and I find out that I find panels/taskbars very handy. That is all, really

[thanatos_incarnate]

I'd guess that contributing to the mailing lists in some shape or form would
grant one the ability to maybe vote on certain specific matters of the distro.
Sometimes this is a viable approach (you don't want me as a layman to vote
on questions such as which scheduler to choose for the kernel), whereas
sometimes the voting system is broken IMHO (the choice of theme may only
be voted on by people who contributed to the desktop debian mailing list).
The rest is probably analysed by a mixture of experience and the results
of popcon (the package popularity survey).
So, it's a bit like ancient Greece. The Debian devs or people contributing
to the mailing lists are like Greek citizens, whereas the rest of us are
like foreigners or slaves with few if any rights. The most we can do for now
is hope that things are turning out more Athens than Sparta.
For the most part though, you're not forced to use most of the default
setups the Debian devs choose. I can install Xfce instead of Gnome
and be sure that the packages aren't a 2nd class citizen like in other
distros that would only concentrate on Gnome, etc.
It's a bit like living as a medieval vagabond: I can stay in the citiy
and live a medieval life of piety or just wander around the vast
stretches of uncontrolled land and play music. On the other hand,
if I get robbed by bandits, I'm out of luck when in the city I'd get
perhaps a soldier to help me.