I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RoyFokker » 2016-12-07 02:58

I just found out about this controversy, late, from this detailed list about the why linux sucks on the desktop:
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.lin ... -2017.html

Btw, I don't think anyone linked to it, but here jwz excorciates the whining Debian cultists on their own buglist:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=819703
Haha so funny to read the Debian cultists and kool aid sippers comment on how evil Jamie Zawinski is! In his blog in this post he excorciated Debian's crappy philosophy:

https://www.jwz.org/blog/2016/04/i-woul ... ent-166433

... Getting email about a years-old already-fixed bug is frustrating if it's because the user was simply too lazy to upgrade. But what I think you have all recently learned here is that thats not what's going on. It's not that they're lazy, it's that Debian has gone out of their way to make it difficult for naive users to run code that does not contain years-old bugs.

Even if I just ignored their reports -- or worse, pointed them the delightful and charming people who populate the Debian bug system to have them ignore them for me -- there are still users who are trying to use my works, and who are experiencing bugs that they should not have to experience because they were fixed years ago. That's extremely frustrating. "I already fixed this, thanks again, Debian!"

And this is by Debian's "design".

...


Or let us look at another person who has an independent functioning brain comment on what Stable in the bizarro Debian world actually means:
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/41085.html
Debian ships an operating system that prides itself on stability. The Debian definition of stability is a very specific one - rather than referring to how often the software crashes or misbehaves, it refers to how often the software changes behaviour. Debian is very reluctant to upgrade software that is part of a stable release, to the extent that developers will attempt to backport individual security fixes to the version they shipped rather than upgrading to a release that contains all those security fixes but also adds a new feature. The argument here is that the new release may also introduce new bugs, and Debian's users desire stability (in the "things don't change" sense) more than new features. ...


Omg someone with an independent, autonomous brain on here who can exit the gravity of crusty Debian dogma:
spacex wrote:viewtopic.php?f=20&t=127858&start=15#p612799
....

Not that I need it, because I can use testing/unstable, but you can't present something as outdated as Jessie to desktop users, and then warn them about testing/unstable. In that case, Debian should warn desktop users against Debian all together. Actually, I think that Debian should divide into two different releases. One conservative server-edition, and one more current desktop-edition.
Last edited by RoyFokker on 2016-12-07 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-12-07 05:20

Well, "crusty Debian dogma" is the reason Debian is one of the longest lived and widest used distro's there is. Along with the fact that it is 'upstream' to the largest number of child distro's and forks, very largely due to the reliability and consistency of the unstable/testing/stable release model.

If you don't like / agree with the Debian 'stable' release model, there is a distro out there for you (likely based on a curated collection of Debian sid/testing packages).
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-07 07:55

RoyFokker wrote:
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/41085.html

Debian's users desire stability (in the "things don't change" sense) more than new features. ...

I agree with this, the unchanging API is very important to me and one of the main reasons for using Debian.

@RoyFokker, please stop trolling these boards and go enjoy your Windows system instead, your posts are tedious in the extreme...

:roll:
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby debiman » 2016-12-09 20:46

i am using xlock now. seriously. it has the only marquee screensaver that does what i want: display command output in a way that doesn't burn in my monitor, i.e. saves my screen.
none of the xscreensaver text savers were configurable in a way that satisfied me. too much twisting & twirling, too much GL, and then it fails with something as simple as text color.

not that i was ever affected by that silly ego-bug (archlinux on desktop), but there's quite few things that annoyed me.

i saw this comment come up:
there is not a reasonable alternative that can take all the zillion modules available for xscreensaver. I would have ditched it for something more modern ages ago were it not for that fact, if you want nice screensavers that can do things like allow you to play videos using mplayer as your screensaver, you literally have no other choice (as far as i know, please somebody prove me wrong...)
so i'm proving it wrong now - one can achieve this with a package called xss - it includes a few binaries that allow you to start all the screensaver programs that come with xscreensaver, and those from "The Really Slick Screensavers port to GLX" (rss-glx), and why not an mplayer video, too. anything. any command, any script.

xss is not in debian stable repos.
but there are others:
xautolock
xss-lock
xlock
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RoyFokker » 2016-12-11 18:47

@Head_on_a_Stick:

Herr, derr, "unchanging API"? This is what Linus says about the suck in his own playground:

DebConf 14: QA with Linus Torvalds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8#t=357

"No distro has ever got distro packaging right, they don't have a stable ABI/API for application developers. To make a linux binary is a major pain in the ass, you make a binary for Fedora 19, Fedora 20, Debian stable ... You cannot make binaries because the software is so old"

Haha! Even Linus says that choosing between hundreds of different distros is only the freedom to suck and fail!
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RU55EL » 2016-12-11 19:07

[edit 12/13/16 10:00AM]
My original post was removed in order to drop the issue. But, because Mor replied, and out of repect for him, I restored the post.
[/edit]

mor wrote:[...]The way I see these attempts to change how Debian works, is like seeing someone trying to change -say- a tractor into a commuting vehicle.
Let's imagine Debian as a tractor, happily spending its days working the fields with plows and harvesters, then someone comes along, sees it and likes it because it is after all a good machine, that someone then starts using it even to go to his office downtown, but commuting is not as smooth. So he thinks that having different tires and maybe a bigger cabin with backseats for the kids would make it a much better and more practical ride, along with a few modifications to the aerodynamics and maybe different gear ratios, and the shocks and a nicer body, maybe a new paintjob.
Yeah, that's much better now, but it no longer is the tractor it was in the beginning.

You can even picture the analogy the other way around with Debian being a sedan and someone trying to use it in the fields, the point is the same: Debian is what it is and people use it exactly because it is Stable and "outdated" (aka very low maintenance) and that's its forte.
If you change it because you want it to be more apt (pun intended) for a different demographic, then by all means do, make you own distro like many have already and be done with it.
Nobody is forcing users to have Debian as their distro. If they like it but want it different then they want something else. And again, there are literally hundreds of choices out there.[...]


This is a very good point!
Last edited by RU55EL on 2016-12-13 18:00, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RoyFokker » 2016-12-11 19:13

No, it is nothing like your commuter car and tractor analogy which only makes sense to Debian zealots. The linux fail distributions all have stupid arbitrary ways of delineating what software is stable and is available to end users. Those with the developer manpower like debian waste massive resources scanning upstream software projects to "backport" bugfixes. In this case one of the upstream developers fought back! And it was funny.

On every other operating system userland developers who are in a better position determine what is stable and/or users have the freedom choose which linux fail distributions deprive them of.

Another funny incident a Debian developer whining because an upstream software project added a line of code just to insult him:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=477454
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby mor » 2016-12-13 17:15

I imagine you were referring to something RU55EL might have said in the post that I see was edited after you posted yours, however the tractor analogy seemed familiar enough to make me read back a few posts and remember I wrote it.

Regardless, and since I'm here, I would like to comment on what you said.

Of course in a way the concept of stability in Debian makes sense to "its zealots" because Debian is geared towards a particular range of uses. Those who fit within the spectrum are more or less fine with the way it is, others are always left wanting it to be different.

The point of the analogy was exactly that of helping even non-zealots of stability, make sense of the concept of stability by way of using a different set of tools to explain the absurdity of the complaint of Debian being obsolete.
Talking about tractors and sedans is in fact incidental and you can replace those with other tools that belong to similar categories but are ultimately designed to be used in fundamentally different scenarios, such as, for example, toasters and ovens or TVs and projectors or band saws and table saws or, to get back to vehicles, sport bikes and dirt bikes.

If you can grasp the notion that complaining about -say- the Ducati Panigale not being good enough in mud is idiotic, you should also understand how complaining about Debian being a Stable (aka unchanging, unsurprising) system is a misguided endeavor because just as sport bikes are designed to go fast on road and not at all on mud, Debian is designed to be stable, unchanging, predictable, low maintenance, no fuss.
Nobody is preventing anybody from wanting to use Debian for any type of use that doesn't necessarily fit the bill, just as nobody is preventing anyone from trying to do something like this on their sport/road bike, but complaining about Debian being obsolete is exactly like wanting Ducati to change the Panigale so it can jump over banks and cliffs and handle mud, because that's what you want in a bike.

Bye and take care. ;)
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-13 19:35

"Only the mediocre are always at their best." — Jean Giraudoux
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby HuangLao » 2016-12-13 19:40

Image
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-13 21:03

I second that:

ImageJust"click"YES if you agree.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby mor » 2016-12-14 09:12

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:scnr...

:mrgreen:

When I was writing my post I had a hunch that the Panigale would strike a chord with you.

A custom, however. ;)
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