I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby esp7 » 2016-04-12 19:55

apt-get purge xscreensaver
apt-get install light-locker

and let's move on :mrgreen:
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby stevepusser » 2016-04-12 20:22

andros705 wrote:I think that debian should include newest xscreensaver in stable distribution, I have already tried it and it works great, there is no bugs and I am aggree that debian should update most of his software.


Debian does update the software--just not as often as some people would like.

But if you want newer versions, there are other distros or repositories based on Stable that fulfil that desire, including the xscreensaver package.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby spacex » 2016-04-12 23:40

mor wrote:Try to think about the last part of this sentence with the tractor analogy in mind: "people coming to a tractor dealership looking for a sedan or a minivan or other street car anyway".

That's the error. Debian is a distribution meant to be stable and low maintenance, people looking for the next long awaited feature of their apps are simply in the wrong place.
Now, I understand why one that doesn't fit in the Debian's system would want to change things, but why would Debian and all those who, on the other hand, are with Debian exactly because of the way it is, want to change things?

==> Well, but perhaps you have read me wrong. Because my only issue with this, is that Debian does nothing to tell these users off, before they encounter a sour-puss in the community that tells them to go elsewhere if they want it new and shining. After they've already wasted time in Debian.

mor wrote:And no, alternatives exist. What about Ubuntu and Mint or openSuse and Fedora?
No doctor prescribed Debian to people who want fresher desktops.
If people don't like Ubuntu's (and friends) policies with spyware and other shit like that, wouldn't it make much more sense to try and change Ubuntu's policies rather than mess with Debian's nature?

==> Eh, there are lots of other reasons why I don't like any of the alternatives you are mentioning, and as far as changing the Ubuntu policies, get real :)

mor wrote:and he pleas everyone to either use a "stable outdated system" or drop his program, but not to change the dependency.

==> You mean like Debian pleas that we all should use a "stable outdated system(Jessie)" or drop Debian and go somewhere else :P

Actually, I set a different standard for a distribution like Debian, and end-users on Debian. End-users may do whatever to their own system, but Debian shouldn't distribute any programs against the developers wishes, regardless what it is licencensed under. If I was a developer that received treatment like this, I would do a hell of a lot more than just putting in a polite warning as a time-bomb.

But WE disagree because you all seem to mean that just because you have the right to do something, it's automatically right to go ahead and just do it. I for one are not only limited by laws and regulations, I am also limited by morals and ethics. If something feels wrong, then it is wrong, no matter what any license says.

Anyways, it will do Debian no good to piss off good developers. Not in the long run.


Bye ;)
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby edbarx » 2016-04-15 13:01

The first day I uploaded my network manager on git.devuan.org, it was immediately forked by another developer. Should I grumble and curse?

A license permitting the forking and editing of code is what it is: anyone who wants to restrict users from modifying code should publish only closed source projects or at least close source only the code he/she doesn't want to be modified.

Publishing source under certain license terms and then unexpectedly turning to users to refrain from some of those license terms, is also unethical, as it can be interpreted as deceptive on the part of the publisher/developer.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby spacex » 2016-04-15 13:48

edbarx wrote:The first day I uploaded my network manager on git.devuan.org, it was immediately forked by another developer. Should I grumble and curse?

A license permitting the forking and editing of code is what it is: anyone who wants to restrict users from modifying code should publish only closed source projects or at least close source only the code he/she doesn't want to be modified.

Publishing source under certain license terms and then unexpectedly turning to users to refrain from some of those license terms, is also unethical, as it can be interpreted as deceptive on the part of the publisher/developer.


I don't disagree with this. Forking it is fine. Also that users change the code. But when you redistribute the package with those changes, it has to be clear that it is a modified version, and that the original developer in no way can be responsible for the package anymore. Nor be expected to offer any kind of support for such modified versions.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-04-21 10:29

AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby No_windows » 2016-04-21 16:56

I got the update, and was surprised, as I thought I had completely removed it from my system. I must have just disabled it.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby spacex » 2016-04-22 19:49

dilberts_left_nut wrote:http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/x/xscreensaver/xscreensaver_5.30-1+deb8u2_changelog


As most Debian users ever will read that. They still would bug the developer no matter what.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby dust hill resident » 2016-04-23 19:12

This is a bloody disgrace. It's PC gone mad. Debian should update XScreenSaver or immediately cease distributing it.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby michael@debian » 2016-05-14 20:54

If Debian stops shipping with XScreenSaver, how am I supposed to watch the dolphins swim?
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RoyFokker » 2016-12-07 02:58

I just found out about this controversy, late, from this detailed list about the why linux sucks on the desktop:
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.lin ... -2017.html

Btw, I don't think anyone linked to it, but here jwz excorciates the whining Debian cultists on their own buglist:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... bug=819703
Haha so funny to read the Debian cultists and kool aid sippers comment on how evil Jamie Zawinski is! In his blog in this post he excorciated Debian's crappy philosophy:

https://www.jwz.org/blog/2016/04/i-woul ... ent-166433

... Getting email about a years-old already-fixed bug is frustrating if it's because the user was simply too lazy to upgrade. But what I think you have all recently learned here is that thats not what's going on. It's not that they're lazy, it's that Debian has gone out of their way to make it difficult for naive users to run code that does not contain years-old bugs.

Even if I just ignored their reports -- or worse, pointed them the delightful and charming people who populate the Debian bug system to have them ignore them for me -- there are still users who are trying to use my works, and who are experiencing bugs that they should not have to experience because they were fixed years ago. That's extremely frustrating. "I already fixed this, thanks again, Debian!"

And this is by Debian's "design".

...


Or let us look at another person who has an independent functioning brain comment on what Stable in the bizarro Debian world actually means:
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/41085.html
Debian ships an operating system that prides itself on stability. The Debian definition of stability is a very specific one - rather than referring to how often the software crashes or misbehaves, it refers to how often the software changes behaviour. Debian is very reluctant to upgrade software that is part of a stable release, to the extent that developers will attempt to backport individual security fixes to the version they shipped rather than upgrading to a release that contains all those security fixes but also adds a new feature. The argument here is that the new release may also introduce new bugs, and Debian's users desire stability (in the "things don't change" sense) more than new features. ...


Omg someone with an independent, autonomous brain on here who can exit the gravity of crusty Debian dogma:
spacex wrote:viewtopic.php?f=20&t=127858&start=15#p612799
....

Not that I need it, because I can use testing/unstable, but you can't present something as outdated as Jessie to desktop users, and then warn them about testing/unstable. In that case, Debian should warn desktop users against Debian all together. Actually, I think that Debian should divide into two different releases. One conservative server-edition, and one more current desktop-edition.
Last edited by RoyFokker on 2016-12-07 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-12-07 05:20

Well, "crusty Debian dogma" is the reason Debian is one of the longest lived and widest used distro's there is. Along with the fact that it is 'upstream' to the largest number of child distro's and forks, very largely due to the reliability and consistency of the unstable/testing/stable release model.

If you don't like / agree with the Debian 'stable' release model, there is a distro out there for you (likely based on a curated collection of Debian sid/testing packages).
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-07 07:55

RoyFokker wrote:
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/41085.html

Debian's users desire stability (in the "things don't change" sense) more than new features. ...

I agree with this, the unchanging API is very important to me and one of the main reasons for using Debian.

@RoyFokker, please stop trolling these boards and go enjoy your Windows system instead, your posts are tedious in the extreme...

:roll:
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby debiman » 2016-12-09 20:46

i am using xlock now. seriously. it has the only marquee screensaver that does what i want: display command output in a way that doesn't burn in my monitor, i.e. saves my screen.
none of the xscreensaver text savers were configurable in a way that satisfied me. too much twisting & twirling, too much GL, and then it fails with something as simple as text color.

not that i was ever affected by that silly ego-bug (archlinux on desktop), but there's quite few things that annoyed me.

i saw this comment come up:
there is not a reasonable alternative that can take all the zillion modules available for xscreensaver. I would have ditched it for something more modern ages ago were it not for that fact, if you want nice screensavers that can do things like allow you to play videos using mplayer as your screensaver, you literally have no other choice (as far as i know, please somebody prove me wrong...)
so i'm proving it wrong now - one can achieve this with a package called xss - it includes a few binaries that allow you to start all the screensaver programs that come with xscreensaver, and those from "The Really Slick Screensavers port to GLX" (rss-glx), and why not an mplayer video, too. anything. any command, any script.

xss is not in debian stable repos.
but there are others:
xautolock
xss-lock
xlock
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Re: I would like Debian to stop shipping XScreenSaver

Postby RoyFokker » 2016-12-11 18:47

@Head_on_a_Stick:

Herr, derr, "unchanging API"? This is what Linus says about the suck in his own playground:

DebConf 14: QA with Linus Torvalds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8#t=357

"No distro has ever got distro packaging right, they don't have a stable ABI/API for application developers. To make a linux binary is a major pain in the ass, you make a binary for Fedora 19, Fedora 20, Debian stable ... You cannot make binaries because the software is so old"

Haha! Even Linus says that choosing between hundreds of different distros is only the freedom to suck and fail!
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