Debian feels like having to remove panel, short th[SOLVED]

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Debian feels like having to remove panel, short th[SOLVED]

Postby aNoobInSweden » 2016-05-24 19:28

I hope that this will lead to a constructive debate, and not just flaming...

Is it just me, or does Debian feel like it just has "presets" and if you want to do something but the most ordinary, you have to go "under the hood"?

Compare to a washing machine, that has a few functions on the panel - 1:wool, 2:cotton white, and 3:cotton colour, which gives 1: gentle wash, 30 deg.C. no spin-dry. 2: normal wash, 60 C, full speed spin dry. 3: normal wash, 40 C, full speed spin-dry.

If you have clothes that require, say 60 C but a lower spin speed, you have to consult the Internet on how to remove the cover, disconnect a few wires, connect them together and/or to other connectors, re-assemble the machine and press start.

The next time you want to wash according to a standard program, you have no idea if the machine will run that program, the same "program" as the re-wiring did, or something completely different.


I have only used Microsoft Windows and DOS before I tried Debian, and I hope there are others both with that background and others who want to share their experiences and so.

I got tired of Microsoft for privacy reasons - no full disk encryption worth trusting, no transparency, shady embedded stuff called "nsakey", etc. and now they just keep getting worse with the Windows 10 upgrade crap. MS is not to be trusted...

So I installed Debian, and took some time to try to learn it. After all, that's how I learned Windows once upon a time. The first thing that happened was that the screen flickered in uneven intervals - I found the answer somewhere, it was something with a watchdog, and I ran a command that was recommended, and it worked. I do not remember what it was, where I found it (I tried searching again), or anything.

Then I wanted to turn off the function corresponding to mouse acceleration, or "improve pointer precision" as it's called in MS Win. There was no such checkbox in the mouse settings of Debian. I had to search again, found a program to install - oh, how do you install programs? With code in the prompt...

That taken care of, and a whole lot of privacy settings, including a VPN service, later, I felt secure enough to watch YouTube.

No Flash Player that worked. An old version of Gnash that didn't support YouTube.

So: Find out what "backports" are, start GEdit from a superuser prompt in order to be able to alter a text file - sources.list - in order to be able to run a special command that took me days to find out (with the help of you here on Debian Forums - thanks). Got error message! More days to find out what to do about it, having no idea what I was doing, and finally got it to work.

Problems keeping on coming up in the same way, with different things, over and over again.

And now it's time again, Gnash does no longer work on YouTube.


Do you see what I want to say? Debian is free, so it's not like there is a responsibility anywhere, but I thought the general idea was to make something useful for most people, not just the lightest users that write simple text files, and the experts who know all the necessary tricks.

I wouldn't take a washing machine like the one in the example for free, even if it made my clothes twice as clean and last three times as long, if I could buy one that I can actually set to the correct temperature, program type and spin speed from the panel, even if it is expensive.

However, I value my privacy higher than my laundry, so I try to continue with Debian...
Last edited by aNoobInSweden on 2016-06-14 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby BowCatShot » 2016-05-24 19:55

It's easy to point out a problem, i.e., piss, moan, and complain. It's much more constructive to include a proposal for a solution. What's yours?
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby arochester » 2016-05-24 19:57

You have used many words and have given us very little information.

Are you still using Wheezy? Or have you progressed to Jessie? Or Stretch?

Are you still using IceWeasel? Or are you using Chromium? Or another browser?

Do you want a philosophical debate about Debian or do you want your problems solved?

If IceWeasel have you tried?: apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree

If Chromium have you tried?: apt-get install pepperflashplugin-nonfree
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby Hallvor » 2016-05-24 20:10

I think the problem is that you are still a beginner. It can be very frustrating to go from being a Windows power user to a Debian beginner, but we have all been there.

Why you want to install flash to watch Youtube, I have no idea. It has supported html5 for ages.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-05-24 20:37

aNoobInSweden wrote:Is it just me, or does Debian feel like it just has "presets" and if you want to do something but the most ordinary, you have to go "under the hood"?

For the default GNOME desktop, I think that is a fair characterisation.

I prefer to remove the presets entirely myself of course :D

Flash Player

If you really *need* FlashPlayer in Debian, I would recommend installing Google Chrome Stable.
https://www.google.com/chrome/

The Pepperflash plugin cannot be installed in Debian at the moment [1] (although this should be fixed soon) so Google Chrome is the only working alternative that offers support for the latest version of FlashPlayer.

Do you see what I want to say? Debian is free, so it's not like there is a responsibility anywhere, but I thought the general idea was to make something useful for most people, not just the lightest users that write simple text files, and the experts who know all the necessary tricks.

I wouldn't take a washing machine like the one in the example for free, even if it made my clothes twice as clean and last three times as long, if I could buy one that I can actually set to the correct temperature, program type and spin speed from the panel, even if it is expensive.

Debian provides tools rather than services, this is why there are so many APT-based distributions derived from Debian-- why not try one of those instead?

[1] without a workaround: https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic ... 885#p27885
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-05-24 23:04

Well , I find Debian the most user friendly linux system I have ever used,
it even comes with a full set of instructions, right in the "box".
Code: Select all
man man

And since it is open source, what ever things I want to change , I can.
Any little details that maybe I don't like (there are none) but if there were
it would be no big deal to change or remove them

Windows might be ok , but I never could get it to work right. It is the most "user unfriendly" thing I have ever seen.

I would even pay for Debian, if need be and I had to, but I am VERY grateful it is available to all of us, even people with little or no money.
But also it is a nice feeling, when one does what they can , donate money, or
even if no money is available, pitch in and help with whatever one can do.
IE: translations, support help, website maintenance, publicity,testing, etc... see;
https://www.debian.org/intro/help

My reasons for using Debian go beyond just wanting a "free meal" and so
called "privacy" issues.

I would not use the Windows even if it was for free.
Someone would have to pay me a fairly high price to try to use it,and repair
it. It is a very broken program.

I hope that this will lead to a constructive debate, and not just flaming.

And what do you expect, posting something like this, on a Debian forum ?
It really is simple, If you like what windows is like so much, use windows,..
If you like Debian, but are having trouble understanding how to use it and administer
your system, feel free to ask for help here, use the "man" command, and explore your system, learn how to use it.
If you are expecting the Debian Developers to change everything, so it is more like the
Windows system, forget it, but this is not the right place for that, you should contact them and tell them what you seem to think is so bad about Debian.
I am not saying Debian is perfect, somebody else all ready mentioned, if you want changes, stop whining, and start learning how to make the changes you would want, it is all open source, there is no reason you can not customize your system so it fits your exact needs.
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2016-05-25 02:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby stevepusser » 2016-05-25 00:49

Pepperflash currently in testing solves the key problem if backported:

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/pep ... in-nonfree

It's probably possible to just install the testing deb in Jessie. 64-bit only, since 32-bit Chrome has joined the choir invisible.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby Ardouos » 2016-05-25 09:20

aNoobInSweden wrote:Is it just me, or does Debian feel like it just has "presets" and if you want to do something but the most ordinary, you have to go "under the hood"?


That depends, Debian is a "do it yourself" system provided with a very stable base. The idea is that you can get "under the hood" and make tweaks to configuration files with generally Debian users prefer.

However, there are different desktops that do make this easier for you. For example: Gnome uses "package" as a GUI to install packages and "package updater" to update the system, both used so users do not need to touch the terminal.

Generally, If the user does want more of a point and click experience, There are plenty of spins and derivatives of Debian.

aNoobInSweden wrote:So I installed Debian, and took some time to try to learn it. After all, that's how I learned Windows once upon a time. The first thing that happened was that the screen flickered in uneven intervals - I found the answer somewhere, it was something with a watchdog, and I ran a command that was recommended, and it worked. I do not remember what it was, where I found it (I tried searching again), or anything.


Nice to know that you do your own research... Remember that it is not all about the goal, but the journey and experience getting there. No one is born knowing how GNU/ Linux works and yes, it does get easier over time if you stick to it.


aNoobInSweden wrote:However, I value my privacy higher than my laundry, so I try to continue with Debian...

Thanks for sticking around. :)
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby cpoakes » 2016-05-25 22:06

I appreciate the analogy. I think the process is more akin to researching and locating an interchangeable control panel with the function you want, and replacing the old with the new. You are likely to discover pre-drilled holes in the new one for other controls to customize the way you launder even more to your liking.

So yes. Debian is more DIY than plug-and-play which goes a long way toward explaining many of its ready-to-wear derivatives.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby dasein » 2016-05-26 00:31

cpoakes wrote:So yes. Debian is more DIY than plug-and-play which goes a long way toward explaining many of its ready-to-wear derivatives.

Exactly. Debian as a distro has never put a priority on OOB desktop usability. That's just not its focus.

The OP chose a distro suited to intermediate users and then complains that it's not suitable for beginners. Sorta like someone buying a bicycle and then complaining because it needs to be pedaled.

There are dozens of "easier" derivatives and respins. Beginners who want "easy" should, well, y'know, choose easy.
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby aNoobInSweden » 2016-05-27 17:19

BowCatShot wrote:It's easy to point out a problem, i.e., piss, moan, and complain. It's much more constructive to include a proposal for a solution. What's yours?


I thought that was more or less obvious from the questions, a few are: having more options in the GUI:s, and the following information about the stuff that needs to be done in the prompt: 1: what's the proper syntax to do this, 2: what does it do, 3: what can be possible side-effects, 4: how can it be undone if necessary.

arochester wrote:You have used many words and have given us very little information.

Are you still using Wheezy? Or have you progressed to Jessie? Or Stretch?

Are you still using IceWeasel? Or are you using Chromium? Or another browser?

Do you want a philosophical debate about Debian or do you want your problems solved?

If IceWeasel have you tried?: apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree

If Chromium have you tried?: apt-get install pepperflashplugin-nonfree


Sorry, I'm running Wheezy with IceWeasel, and as far as possible I try to avoid the nonfree stuff, so I updated the Gnash (thread on that http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=115357). However, either it just worked once, or YouTube now uses something that not even the latest Gnash supports. I don't know if I want a philosophical debate or problems solved, maybe a little bit of both...

Hallvor wrote:I think the problem is that you are still a beginner. It can be very frustrating to go from being a Windows power user to a Debian beginner, but we have all been there.

Why you want to install flash to watch Youtube, I have no idea. It has supported html5 for ages.


Thanks. I don't remember why I came to that conclusion, it must either have been that I couldn't get it to work, or that it would be hostile to privacy. I don't remember, it was a couple of years ago.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
aNoobInSweden wrote:Is it just me, or does Debian feel like it just has "presets" and if you want to do something but the most ordinary, you have to go "under the hood"?

For the default GNOME desktop, I think that is a fair characterisation.

I prefer to remove the presets entirely myself of course :D

Flash Player

If you really *need* FlashPlayer in Debian, I would recommend installing Google Chrome Stable.
https://www.google.com/chrome/

The Pepperflash plugin cannot be installed in Debian at the moment [1] (although this should be fixed soon) so Google Chrome is the only working alternative that offers support for the latest version of FlashPlayer.

Do you see what I want to say? Debian is free, so it's not like there is a responsibility anywhere, but I thought the general idea was to make something useful for most people, not just the lightest users that write simple text files, and the experts who know all the necessary tricks.

I wouldn't take a washing machine like the one in the example for free, even if it made my clothes twice as clean and last three times as long, if I could buy one that I can actually set to the correct temperature, program type and spin speed from the panel, even if it is expensive.

Debian provides tools rather than services, this is why there are so many APT-based distributions derived from Debian-- why not try one of those instead?

[1] without a workaround: https://forums.bunsenlabs.org/viewtopic ... 885#p27885


As I said in the starting post, I take privacy seriously. I'm not installing anything that is made by Google. Visiting YouTube is risky enough. The choice was between Debian and Mint, I don't know what Mint is based on, but it doesn't have full disk encryption, at least it didn't then. I've read much bad stuff about Ubuntu regarding privacy, even if it's claimed to be more user friendly. I should probably check out a few more, but you know the feeling when you have made yourself more or less at home with an installation, be it Windows, Debian or whatever, you don't want to start from scratch and install the programs you need, set everything up and so on, in the worst case missing some important settings of privacy. At least that's how I feel.

wizard10000 wrote:Hi, aNoobInSweden -

Using your own analogy the only things I need on my laptop are wool, cotton colour and a 40 degree wash and I'm willing to rewire my washer if I need something else :)

I run a fairly minimal system but it does everything I need it to do. TBH it would take me days or weeks to duplicate the machine from bare metal as the configuration I have is based in years of experimenting and it works the way *I* want it to.

I like Debian *because* I have choices. I prefer it because if something doesn't work it's generally *my* fault, and I don't require a whole lot of handholding. All those pointy clicky things in Linux just modify text files and I can do that myself and not have to have the UI overhead that pointy clicky things require, especially since most of the pointy clicky things are only used once but the overhead they require is with you all the time :)

Debian is not for everybody. Here's an example -

I want my laptop to run at full processor speed if it's plugged in and lowest processor speed if it's running on battery. I could install a pointy clicky power management application or I could just make two small edits in a text file - from

Code: Select all
CPU_SCALING_GOVERNOR_ON_AC=ondemand
CPU_SCALING_GOVERNOR_ON_BAT=ondemand


to

Code: Select all
CPU_SCALING_GOVERNOR_ON_AC=performance
CPU_SCALING_GOVERNOR_ON_BAT=powersave


There. Fixed and I never have to edit that text file again :)

See my previous answer :-) I know exactly what you mean, and that's a neat fix instead of having to install something. What I mean is that either that pointy-clicky thing should be there from the beginning, or there should be some documentation telling me what text file to edit and what to write in it.
Continuing this example, what would happen if there is such a setting in the GUI somewhere else and you change that text file? would that setting change too, would it "pop back into place" when you change it to the same as you already have done in the text file and work when you change it back, wouldn't it work at all, or would it work doubly? That's what I mean by not knowing what happens when you push the regular buttons after rewiring.

GarryRicketson wrote:Well , I find Debian the most user friendly linux system I have ever used,
it even comes with a full set of instructions, right in the "box".
Code: Select all
man man

However, no instruction on how to access those instructions. I knew there were manpages for the different commands, but I hadn't heard of that one until now.
GarryRicketson wrote:And since it is open source, what ever things I want to change , I can.
Any little details that maybe I don't like (there are none) but if there were
it would be no big deal to change or remove them
Windows might be ok , but I never could get it to work right. It is the most "user unfriendly" thing I have ever seen.

Yes you can, if you have spent tens of hours behind the screen together with people who are already experts, or hundreds of hours reading and writing on forums. I learned Windows pretty much alone, with some help on the trickier bits. There's no such possibility in Debian, anything more complicated than creating a text file immediately throws you into those tricky bits.
GarryRicketson wrote: My reasons for using Debian go beyond just wanting a "free meal" and so
called "privacy" issues.

Privacy and IT security are serious issues, and a "free meal" isn't what I'm after. If it is actually useful, I could very well pay for it. If you think I'm using it to commit crimes or other shady business you are absolutely wrong.
GarryRicketson wrote:
I hope that this will lead to a constructive debate, and not just flaming.

And what do you expect, posting something like this, on a Debian forum ?
*load of hate*

Until you came along, mostly exactly what I hoped for.




stevepusser wrote:Pepperflash currently in testing solves the key problem if backported:

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/pep ... in-nonfree

It's probably possible to just install the testing deb in Jessie. 64-bit only, since 32-bit Chrome has joined the choir invisible.


See answer to Head_on_a_Stick.

Ardouos wrote:
aNoobInSweden wrote:Is it just me, or does Debian feel like it just has "presets" and if you want to do something but the most ordinary, you have to go "under the hood"?


That depends, Debian is a "do it yourself" system provided with a very stable base. The idea is that you can get "under the hood" and make tweaks to configuration files with generally Debian users prefer.

However, there are different desktops that do make this easier for you. For example: Gnome uses "package" as a GUI to install packages and "package updater" to update the system, both used so users do not need to touch the terminal.

Generally, If the user does want more of a point and click experience, There are plenty of spins and derivatives of Debian.

aNoobInSweden wrote:So I installed Debian, and took some time to try to learn it. After all, that's how I learned Windows once upon a time. The first thing that happened was that the screen flickered in uneven intervals - I found the answer somewhere, it was something with a watchdog, and I ran a command that was recommended, and it worked. I do not remember what it was, where I found it (I tried searching again), or anything.


Nice to know that you do your own research... Remember that it is not all about the goal, but the journey and experience getting there. No one is born knowing how GNU/ Linux works and yes, it does get easier over time if you stick to it.


aNoobInSweden wrote:However, I value my privacy higher than my laundry, so I try to continue with Debian...

Thanks for sticking around. :)


Being able to get under the hood is something I always prefer, no matter if it is a car, a real, physical washing machine, or an operating system. I repair things and make things better than they were new. What I have a problem with are things that lets you think they are straightforward, but then soon require getting under the hood, with intricate knowledge of what's there, in order to be used normally. AFAIK Gnome is standard in Debian Wheezy. I had no idea that "package" and "package updater" existed, or at least what they were for, until after maybe a year. Until then, I was told by guides, FAQ:s and forum users to use Apt-Get or Aptitude.
Sometimes the GUI updaters doesn't do the trick, or I don't know how to do the trick with them, so I have to use the prompt, sometimes after searching and/or asking. Then I wonder how that will affect the GUI:s. If I enable backports to install a later Gnash, will the GUI update that later, leave it vulnerable and/or useless, or modify some package that depends on it or vice versa, so that it breaks something? I have no idea, and I don't know how to find out...

It hasn't gotten easier yet, because nowadays I so rarely have to go "under the hood", so now I have forgotten most of what I knew of how to do it, so when I have to, it's as bad. Even worse, actually, because I don't remember what I did, so neither I or anyone who helps me on the forums can expect the same result as if I hadn't done it in the first place...

cpoakes wrote:I appreciate the analogy. I think the process is more akin to researching and locating an interchangeable control panel with the function you want, and replacing the old with the new. You are likely to discover pre-drilled holes in the new one for other controls to customize the way you launder even more to your liking.

So yes. Debian is more DIY than plug-and-play which goes a long way toward explaining many of its ready-to-wear derivatives.

Thanks. The problem with that is that if I were to do that, the new control panel wouldn't have the old washing programs, that I also use. Also, the holes are unmarked, and so are the controls one can put in them. And sometimes the automatic assembler fails, and a screw falls out into the machine, and even though I know exactly where it should be and where it went (an error message), I have no idea how to put it back where it belongs manually, and no idea if the machine still works, if it breaks if I start it, or if the live wire comes into contact with the unearthed casing... About the derivatives - read the answer to Head_on_a_Stick

dasein wrote:
cpoakes wrote:So yes. Debian is more DIY than plug-and-play which goes a long way toward explaining many of its ready-to-wear derivatives.

Exactly. Debian as a distro has never put a priority on OOB desktop usability. That's just not its focus.

The OP chose a distro suited to intermediate users and then complains that it's not suitable for beginners. Sorta like someone buying a bicycle and then complaining because it needs to be pedaled.

There are dozens of "easier" derivatives and respins. Beginners who want "easy" should, well, y'know, choose easy.


And would I actually learn anything from that, or would I stay beginner forever? If I'd buy an electric bike, I can train by pedalling more and more, but if I buy a moped, there are no pedals. Also, what distro has both fair OOB desktop usability and high privacy?
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby stevepusser » 2016-05-28 00:37

We give advice to use the command line because, unlike certain other OS types, which rhyme with shmindows and shmapple, *nixes have a multitude of different desktops, GUI configuration tools, editors and so on, but the terminal commands will always be the same, and work.

On Wheezy, you can install a newer Iceweasel/Firefox from mozilla.debian.net or directly from Mozilla. Newer versions will need gstreamer1.0 plugin and libav packages from the wheezy-backports for HTML5 video. Youtube pushes HTML 5 video to versions >= 40 automatically.

Similar gstreamer requirements are necessary for the Firefox derived Pale Moon browser--I maintain a repository which autobuilds Debian 7, 8, and Ubuntu packages: https://software.opensuse.org/download. ... e=palemoon

The Debian handbook may also be of use: https://debian-handbook.info/get/now/
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby dasein » 2016-05-28 22:21

Disingenuous disclaimer in first sentence of initial post... Check
False dichotomy... Check
Straw man... Check
Red herring(s)... Check
Gratuitous full quoting... Check

Some things are just obvious
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-05-29 00:06

One thing as well, the analogy is not very good.
If Debian is like a washing machine, that does not have lots of "pre set options", and you "have to remove the panel" so to speak, in order to make changes, or add additional options,
At least Debian makes the panel easily removable and accessible, and in a way
so that the panel can be removed, repairs or modifications can be made, then "the
panel" can be put back on. So the system is secure, safe from "unauthorized" persons, getting in there and messing things up.
On Windows, the "panel" is not even removable, it is permanently sealed, and any attempt at removing it usually results in a "broken" machine.

If you have clothes that require, say 60 C but a lower spin speed, you have to consult the Internet on how to remove the cover, disconnect a few wires, connect them together and/or to other connectors, re-assemble the machine and press start.

Simply not true, you do not have to "consult internet". I don't know how many times
I have wanted to make some changes in my system, and did it simply by consulting the manual.
And some times, that was part of the problem, I could not get online, but fortunately
Debian comes with complete documentation, and a good manual.
Also, if and when a program or script does not quite do what I need it to, it is quite possible to modify the program , simply because the source code is available,..think
I all ready said that.
Windows is like a car with the "hood" welded shut, and sealed, if anything goes wrong, or you want to for example, add a bigger carburetor, you are out of luck, the manufacturer will not allow that.
It really is not even fair to compare the 2 systems, Windows is not even a complete
operating system, it is just a very poorly designed / written program.
Debian is a complete operating system, and can be built up, adding all sorts of programs and scripts, to make the system perform and do whatever one desires.
Windows is limited, and can only be used for a few things, and can not be modified or changed in any way.
,
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Re: Debian feels like having to remove panel, short the wire

Postby tomazzi » 2016-05-29 18:58

GarryRicketson wrote:Windows is like a car with the "hood" welded shut, and sealed, if anything goes wrong, or you want to for example, add a bigger carburetor, you are out of look, the manufacturer will not allow that.
It really is not even fair to compare the 2 systems, Windows is not even a complete
operating system, it is just a very poorly designed / written program.
Debian is a complete operating system, and can be built up, adding all sorts of programs and scripts, to make the system perform and do whatever one desires.
Windows is limited, and can only be used for a few things, and can not be modified or changed in any way.


The example with cars is in fact inadequate -> today car manufacturers are behaving just like microshit, because the owner's "license" doesn't grant the access to even most basic technical specifications and settings. Not to mention, that they are intentionally mounting defective mechanical parts, to ensure that the customers will endlessly pay for their low quality services.
Today, if You want to fix/upgrade Your car without overpaying nonsensical amounts of money, You have to hack the ECU - what involves searching for informations on the "black market".
Even such a trivial task like exchanging brake pads is intentionally blocked in the ECU/ABS unit software by some of manufacturers.

The problem with windows is not that it is poorly designed - the problem is, that it is designed to work against the users. And the same backdoors which are designed to be used by MS to control the users are used by hackers/viruses.
Microshit tries to build a distributed computing botnet based on win10 and 8.1 clients. Their devilish plan is to force their customers to pay bills for the electrical power and internet bandwidth used by that botnet and to cover costs of data storage space for their cloud services ->> that's why win10 is for "free".

...and Debian washing machine comes with many different panels, so You can just change the default one if You don't like it ;)
Odi profanum vulgus
tomazzi
 
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Joined: 2013-08-02 21:33

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