Debian feels like having to remove panel, short th[SOLVED]

[edbarx]

The problem with windows is not that it is poorly designed - the problem is, that it is designed to work against the users.

+infinity

[sunrat]

Thanks for this thread! It just reminded me my washing is finished and I have to go hang it out.

[NFT5]

Some things are just obvious

Only if you're looking for them. I wouldn't apply the label quite as quickly since I believe that posts like OP's opening gambit are not trolling in the sense of being inflammatory. What they are, though, is symptomatic of what I consider poor research and matching of an operating system to one's needs.

When i made the decision to leave the MS fold and change operating systems I wasn't looking at a single desktop, rather two networks of 8 different machines which I note that, as of yesterday, has now grown to 13. I really couldn't afford to make a mistake so I spent the best part of 12 months evaluating various distributions, many of which showed early promise but displayed shortcomings in the testing process. When the decision was finally made to go with Debian that was with reasonable knowledge of what Debian could and couldn't do and the amount of effort that was going to be necessary to shape Debian into an OS that was going to run reliably for the users and for myself as an administrator.

My point here is that too many people don't really do the research properly to find a distro that really suits their expectations, or having done the research, haven't adjusted their expectations to fit with the capabilities of the distribution. The result, of course, is a series of threads on the shortcomings (perceived) of Debian.

Now, as we know, Debian isn't necessarily promoted as a desktop distro, rather as a basic set of building blocks on which can be built the server, desktop or, in fact, distribution of your choice. It may be reasonably said that Debian lacks in user friendliness, not only at the OS/desktop level but also at the support level. No question that there is a vast amount of information out there on almost any problem that one may have. But it's scattered all over the place, between the Wiki, the Manual, the forum(s) and various other web sites. Resources such as the Arch wiki are well advanced on Debian in terms of presentation of information. Much of it, too, is presented in a more technical manner than many Windows escapees are able or willing to understand easily. But, the audience wasn't intended to be that kind of user, rather someone who is at a more intermediate or advanced level. Thus, the commonly given advice to look for another distribution, handed to newbies who are looking for a 'take me by the hand' answer is, I think, sound.

In my opinion OP's concerns on privacy with the Ubuntu distribution have already been addressed. It was only an issue with Unity anyway and was always able to be turned off. Other DEs didn't have the problem. For those who, using OP's analogy, really need a washing machine that can sort whites from coloureds, delicates from heavy fabrics and do the ironing as well, something like Ubuntu MATE is probably a much better choice.

I think also that the perception that Windows is any less configurable, has better defaults or is easier to configure is misplaced. I'd much rather change a few text files than have to delve through the Windows registry. Nor is the idea that Windows is less of an operating system a valid one. Certainly it is a very different model upon which it is based compared to Linux and its variants, but more than half this world runs on Windows and does so reasonably effectively.

What I mean is that either that pointy-clicky thing should be there from the beginning, or there should be some documentation telling me what text file to edit and what to write in it.
Continuing this example, what would happen if there is such a setting in the GUI somewhere else and you change that text file? would that setting change too, would it "pop back into place" when you change it to the same as you already have done in the text file and work when you change it back, wouldn't it work at all, or would it work doubly? That's what I mean by not knowing what happens when you push the regular buttons after rewiring.

As stevepusser pointed out, the command line always works while the GUI procedure varies with the DE. Unfortunately, not all developers are of the same standard and the effectiveness of the "pointy clicky thing" can vary. Some GUI programs work exceptionally well in making effective changes to the underlying configuration text files while others don't. That's not a situation that is unique to Linux - I could point you to any number of Windows 'utilities' that are capable of making a bigger mess than they purport to fix.

What is difficult for someone in the same position as you to grasp is that any given Linux distribution is never a finished product. Desktop environments are even worse, drawing together what is the best available (they think) and making do with that. Then they try to develop the product and it either goes backwards or becomes a bloated mess. Witness KDE and Gnome and see how LXDE has slipped while MATE has gained despite being incomplete. Much of this is because there is no consistent standard for the interface (Just try and exit 3 different programs and you'll see what I mean) but also because the greatest strength of Open Source is also its greatest weakness. Changes are made for whatever reason a developer deigns rather than in line with a consistent set of standards.

Sometimes that's a step forwards, sometimes not. Other times it's a matter of much controversy until proven one way or the other. Nevertheless the variety is what makes the Linux world what it is and don't be fooled by those who may suggest that Microsoft and Apple dismiss Linux as a bunch of nerds with no risk of becoming a competitor. Witness the collaboration between Microsoft and Canonical to integrate the Linux CLI into Windows. Could Win15 be another Linux distribution?

That is, of course, another topic entirely and not for continuation here. Suffice to say that, in summary, the Linux world is very different to that of Microsoft and the Debian way is paved with many Google searches, an acceptance of the fact that it is different and working within such a different framework. In this place a question is not just asked, but followed by "how can I make it better?"

[tomazzi]

While I agree with most of what You've said, there's one sentence in Your post which have took my attention:

What is difficult for someone in the same position as you to grasp is that any given Linux distribution is never a finished product.

First, there's a saying, that none of the programs is really finished - there's always something what can be improved, optimized and there are always some features which can be added/implemented to make the program more convenient/flexible/attractive.

But, I think that You are referring to something else - namely - to the myth about "quality" of a proprietary software.

So, if this is the case, than I'm sorry, but that's simply a bullshit.
F.e. the "finished" Winblows7 had an awful bug causing crashes in the USB driver (a huge regression, comparing to win98 :LOL: )
Not to mention that over 20'000 patches have been released for the "finished" win7, only until the ServicePack1 was released...

Support? - You must be kidding...
99.99% of winblows users are getting the support from other, more experienced winblows users...

Regards.

[NFT5]

But, I think that You are referring to something else - namely - to the myth about "quality" of a proprietary software.

No, not at all. What I was referring to is simply the expectation that some people have that Debian, or in fact any distro, including various applications and programs that come with it, are finished products. Clearly, both you and I understand that this is unreasonable and I was not extending that statement to an assumption that certain proprietary software is any better.

We have the perfect example in this recent thread where the member is complaining about Testing having bugs. How many times have I read "I upgraded to Testing/Sid"?

Win7 has bugs? XP came out in 2001 and they're still trying to fix it.

[aNoobInSweden]

No question that there is a vast amount of information out there on almost any problem that one may have. But it's scattered all over the place, between the Wiki, the Manual, the forum(s) and various other web sites.

Pretty much everything I meant by this thread, condensed into one sentence. Thanks. It's the nested searches that are both worst and most common: search for one thing, find something describing what to do, but involving five actions that each are unknown to me, requiring search, which ends up with five new searches each... Like a Hydra.

We give advice to use the command line because, unlike certain other OS types, which rhyme with shmindows and shmapple, *nixes have a multitude of different desktops, GUI configuration tools, editors and so on, but the terminal commands will always be the same, and work.

On Wheezy, you can install a newer Iceweasel/Firefox from mozilla.debian.net or directly from Mozilla. Newer versions will need gstreamer1.0 plugin and libav packages from the wheezy-backports for HTML5 video. Youtube pushes HTML 5 video to versions >= 40 automatically.

Similar gstreamer requirements are necessary for the Firefox derived Pale Moon browser--I maintain a repository which autobuilds Debian 7, 8, and Ubuntu packages: https://software.opensuse.org/download. ... e=palemoon

The Debian handbook may also be of use: https://debian-handbook.info/get/now/

This is also a thing: I had no idea Iceweasel had stopped updating. I'm still running v. 38.8.0, which probably means it has as many security holes as a sieve.


mozilla.debian.net has the following text: "WARNING: Iceweasel is gone. Please update your apt sources." and the latest version of Iceweasel to choose from is esr38. What to make of that? They quit keeping it up to date and are recommending Firefox instead? Wikipedia Iceweasel page quote: "with the stable branch planning to switch [to Firefox] after Iceweasel's end of life".

End of life? What's the "end of life" for a browser?

[sunrat]

There was an Iceweasel security update today -

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debian Security Advisory DSA-3600-1 security@debian.org
https://www.debian.org/security/ Moritz Muehlenhoff
June 09, 2016 https://www.debian.org/security/faq
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Package : firefox-esr
CVE ID : CVE-2016-2818 CVE-2016-2819 CVE-2016-2821 CVE-2016-2822
CVE-2016-2828 CVE-2016-2831

Multiple security issues have been found in the Mozilla Firefox web
browser: Multiple memory safety errors, buffer overflows and other
implementation errors may lead to the execution of arbitrary code or
spoofing.

Wait, Firefox? No more references to Iceweasel? That's right, Debian no
longer applies a custom branding. Please see these links for further
information:
https://glandium.org/blog/?p=3622
https://en.wikipedia...anded_by_Debian

Debian follows the extended support releases (ESR) of Firefox. Support
for the 38.x series has ended, so starting with this update we're now
following the 45.x releases and this update to the next ESR is also the
point where we reapply the original branding.

Transition packages for the iceweasel packages are provided which
automatically upgrade to the new version. Since new binary packages need
to be installed, make sure to allow that in your upgrade procedure (e.g.
by using "apt-get dist-upgrade" instead of "apt-get upgrade").

For the stable distribution (jessie), these problems have been fixed in
version 45.2.0esr-1~deb8u1.

For the unstable distribution (sid), these problems have been fixed in
version 45.2.0esr-1.

[stevepusser]

Mozilla was maintaining Firefox 38 as an ESR (extended security release), which means that security fixes were applied for each point release of that, eight in all. I think the current ESR is version 45. Since Iceweasel is basically a renamed Firefox, the same applies. I'm pretty sure that Debian will try and keep the stock Jessie version of Iceweasel up to date concerning security holes, usually by backporting upstream fixes to the stock version.

Iceweasel "died" in the sense that Debian no longer renames Firefox.

[sunrat]

The package "iceweasel" is now a transitional package that installs Firefox. As mentioned in the security bulletin, you should dist-upgrade.

[aNoobInSweden]

It installed automatically by the update reminder thing. Video works now. I'll mark this as solved.