systemd is destructive

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby millpond » 2017-03-13 23:54

The problem is that 90% of the time online here is on an ancient 32 bit XP system, which I understand is problematic for doing any kind of developmental work these days. Devuan on this machine is technically an update atop Jesse, and still a bit buggy.

The good news is that I have 2 64 bit Win7 machines, and the newest has Devuan (installed on bare metal), I have been building it up as a development machine, but still have a ways to go. I am more than willing to help there (when I can get the machine away from the lil lady) - but need to know *what* to test.

I'll ask at the other forum...
millpond
 
Posts: 582
Joined: 2014-06-25 04:56

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-03-31 13:00

Jmo but systemd has never given me a single issue. Not the version that came default w Jessie, not the packages in backports, not the ones I installed from Sid repos.

Edit: honestly make that no issue that couldn't be solved quickly via common sense and re-search anyway.

Think people should get over it and simply face the fact that systemd is the future init system for gnu/nix and take some time to learn how to use it and how it works.

No shortage of info available on the topic. It's clearly technically superior in many ways to Sysv and provides a ridiculous number of ways to interact with it and a gnu/linux OS.

Just saying wish folks would place blame where it belongs and take responsibility for admin'ing or failure to bother learning to properly admin the os's and software they use. Things change, esp in tech. Some massively skilled techies decided it was time to implement a new init over one created in the 70's. Just the way it is, shrugs. Sheesh folks either roll up sleeves and learn/research or go w one of the many ways to use another of many options, systemd-shim, openrc, runit, upstart etc etc etc.

Though again how about placing blame where it belongs ? Just saying if x-user wants to be "lazy", install/use software they're totally unfamiliar with and aren't willing to learn anything about its use. To me pretty obvious where the fault lay.

Or of course stick with the lazy (non-competent) user trend that seems to have taken root, blame systemd, blame Debian for your lack of effort or skillset.
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Bulkley » 2017-03-31 22:36

Deb-fan wrote:Jmo but systemd has never given me a single issue. Not the version that came default w Jessie, not the packages in backports, not the ones I installed from Sid repos.


Agreed. I never had a problem that I could blame systemd for. I have had some small problems that were essentially programs that weren't fully ready for systemd.

As I see it the real problem with systemd is philosophical. Systemd does not follow the Unix practice of each program doing one thing and doing it well. I have the same problem with systemd as with many other bloatware programs such as the bigger browsers and word processors. Do we really need a word processor that can send email? Do we need a browser to manage our files? Do we need an init system that captures the whole installation? (I know I didn't word that properly but you get the idea.)
Bulkley
 
Posts: 5100
Joined: 2006-02-11 18:35

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-04-01 12:53

^Yeah get what you're saying there but honestly people much better qualified and likely forgotten more about software development and gnu/Linux than I'll ever know think systemd is needed and a step in the right direction.

I'm sure this is a decision that wasn't made lightly, equally sure people that weren't gifted techies would not be allowed to work on something that important, if they aren't qualified.

Sysv came out in the 70's, since then there's been all manner of patches added to it and an army of dirty hacks to get it to be able to do xyz to whatever degree but systemd clearly does things better. Based upon a bunch of reading-etc.

Avg personal gnu/nix user didn't know, nor care that Sysv was there and they'll have no reason to care that systemd took its place either. People much more tech literate than I am decided systemd is the way to go. In order to criticize them at the very least I'd have to be close to their level in terms of knowledge/skill.

Am not and feel confident saying overwhelming majority of systemd detractors have zero idea what they're talking about too. Would be like me trying to tell Micheal Jordan how to play basketball.

But that's one distinct element found in all grossly ignorant people in my experience. They're all blissfully unaware of how ignorant they are.
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby edbarx » 2017-04-01 16:52

I wouldn't claim systemd is destructive but a U-Turn in the way an init system is conceptualised. Taking the principle of doing one thing and doing it well, systemd is a definite departure from that. Is it wrong, is it right? I am afraid first we have to define and agree on what is right and what is wrong. Does systemd give users more choice? In this case, and considering how unrelated packages are made to depend on systemd, the answer seems an obvious 'no'.

I wouldn't try to bend backwards claiming any critic of systemd lacks knowledge or worse is ignorant. Systemd was initially an init system but now it is evolving into a cluster of software that was not part of an init system before. Is it bad, more specifically, for those who want to have more flexibility in how they set up their GNU/Linux system, does it increase flexibility in what one can install and in how one sets up their system? Unfortunately, the answer to this is 'no'. This means, GNU/Linux has moved another step in the direction of imitating proprietary operating systems where users are treated like clueless individuals who are satisfied by being provided with a basic computing experience.
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
The worst infection of all, is a false sense of security!
It is hard to get away from CLI tools.
User avatar
edbarx
 
Posts: 5378
Joined: 2007-07-18 06:19
Location: 35° 50 N, 14 º 35 E

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby acewiza » 2017-04-02 00:01

edbarx wrote:...GNU/Linux has moved another step in the direction of imitating proprietary operating systems where users are treated like clueless individuals who are satisfied by being provided with a basic computing experience.

More to the point (assuming I agree to some extent with this one snippet of yours), The Linux power brokers have finally agreed that 99.999% of all users actually are clueless (about the technical details) and better served with a computing experience based on systemd.
User avatar
acewiza
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 2013-05-28 12:38
Location: Out West

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-04-02 14:00

Definition of ignorance = lacking knowledge, not knowing. Do disagree with what was said, as from what I've seen, systemd certainly doesn't limit the way someone can configure a gnu/nix OS.

Am also sure the folks in upper Nix geekdom didn't choose systemd without good reason. Weren't sitting around and somebody said hey, for chits and giggles why don't we replace sysv guys.

One point I'm trying to express, is that to really understand the how and why, people would have to be somewhat on the same level of knowledge and skill as the people who make such decisions and it's a total joke to think there's very many around who can honestly claim that.

Sheesh why don't all these armchair warriors go tell Linus Torvalds how the kernel works and all the mistakes being made in its development ? Yeah right.
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-04-02 16:43

Am being fairly ignorant myself here, as this is one of those topics that will rage on into infinity. So I may as well shut it and stop feeding into this.

Regardless of for or against, people with the authority and qualifications to make such decisions regarding init in gnu/linux have done so and it's systemd now.

Personally am learning to use it and hopefully how to take full advantage of its capabilities, if others don't choose to and prefer to go with something else or employ one of the work arounds to using systemd that's totally x-nixers right, shrugs.

Ok shutting it fellows. :) No init packages were damaged during the typing of this stupe post.
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby sgage » 2017-04-02 23:44

So people, just shut up and listen to your betters. Is that you Lennart?

Thing is, a lot of people who object to a) systemd on its technical and design 'merits' and b) the way it was railroaded through, are extremely knowledgable people, veteran admins, and know what they're talking about.

There was a lot more than just 'technical merit' going on with the decision to embrace systemd. The process was short-circuited.
sgage
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 2013-03-10 21:00

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby acewiza » 2017-04-02 23:51

sgage wrote:...are extremely knowledgable people, veteran admins, and know what they're talking about.

This type evolution can be a problem for "veterans." They sometimes tend to become a little too comfortable in their extensive knowledge, becoming less open-minded about alternate concepts and end up getting stuck in the past.
User avatar
acewiza
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 2013-05-28 12:38
Location: Out West

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby bw123 » 2017-04-02 23:57

Deb-fan wrote:In order to criticize them at the very least I'd have to be close to their level in terms of knowledge/skill.


This is true, and while at first I thought your argument to be very persuasive, now I realize that many people have better knowledge and skill than you, and they have an opinion as well.

So thanks to ALL for expressing opinions, even though this thread is getting pretty lame.
jessie/KDE4.14.2 plasma netbook, 3.16.39-1+deb8u2 (2017-03-07) x86_64 GNU/Linux
User avatar
bw123
 
Posts: 2378
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Location: TN_USA

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby sgage » 2017-04-02 23:59

But they know what works, and they know a stinker when they see it. But that's what's always trotted out when anyone points out that the shiny new progressive thing is not progressive or helpful - 'oh, you're just afraid of change'. That's just ad hominem garbage.
sgage
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 2013-03-10 21:00

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-04-03 00:26

Lol yeah why don't all the anti-systemd folks produce some actual hard data and factual based technical metrics demonstrating issues with systemd vs sysv.

Spent more than a tad of time looking for such, all that ever comes up is bs fud and nonsense from end-users about how it deviates from x-unix principle. Who clearly are clueless and probably never contributed a cent or thing to open source. They're crap is quickly debunked by more knowledgeable techies but they keep whining about it anyway.

Checked the opinions of people who actually know what they're talking about when comes to software and gnu/nix, including Linus Torvalds who's apparently using systemd on several of his own personal systems.

Anyway mods, please close my account here. Don't want to participate in this tektard and azzhat-trolls infested community any longer. No doubt plenty of good people here but definitely isn't a shortage of cyber jerkwadz as well, the whole few bad apples, spoiling the bunch unfortunately applies to this situation.

Though will always <heart> Debian regardless.
Deb-fan
 
Posts: 124
Joined: 2012-08-14 12:27

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby bw123 » 2017-04-03 00:34

Anyway mods, please close my account here.


Let me put it another way, before you go away with your tail between your legs.

Do you think you are close in knowledge/skill to the opposing posters on here?
jessie/KDE4.14.2 plasma netbook, 3.16.39-1+deb8u2 (2017-03-07) x86_64 GNU/Linux
User avatar
bw123
 
Posts: 2378
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Location: TN_USA

Re: systemd is destructive

Postby sgage » 2017-04-03 00:35

They have. Plenty of hard data, metrics, use cases, etc. But I suspect you knew that, troll.
Now you're calling it 'whining'. Nothing they have said has been debunked. Nothing.
You are a know-nothing troll.
Oh, and moderators? Definitely delete this clown's account - his last paragraph shows that he's just trying to stir up trouble. He should go up from the basement to the living room and hug his parents - it might help his issues.



Deb-fan wrote:Lol yeah why don't all the anti-systemd folks produce some actual hard data and factual based technical metrics demonstrating issues with systemd vs sysv.

Spent more than a tad of time looking for such, all that ever comes up is bs fud and nonsense from end-users about how it deviates from x-unix principle. They're crap is quickly debunked by more knowledgeable techies but they keep whining about it anyway.

Checked the opinions of people who actually know what they're talking about when comes to software and gnu/nix, including Linus Torvalds who's apparently using systemd on several of his own personal systems.

Anyway mods, please close my account here. Don't want to participate in this test and, azzhat-trolls infested community any longer. No doubt plenty of good people here but definitely isn't a shortage of cyber jerkwadz as well, the whole few bad apples, spoiling the bunch unfortunately applies to this situation.
sgage
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 2013-03-10 21:00

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

fashionable