systemd is destructive

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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby swirler » 2016-12-22 11:50

millpond wrote:(...)
Keeping in mind that much of Unix development with networks has been funded directly, or indirectly by DARPA - I have no doubts that there are some kind of exploits well hidden in the kernel coding or else probably a commonly used module. Look at Bash, which was probably the tip of the iceberg. But I do believe that the deepest layer exploits would be the most classified, to be used only in times of 'emergency' - lest their existence come to light. They do not really bother me, as they could just as easily shut the net down.(...)


And lose the wealth of information that makes the surveillance state possible in the first place, not to mention the worldwide scam known as "networked finance" ?
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Segfault » 2016-12-22 16:25

Thanks for interesting links in this thread! I'm one of those weird ones who think to make informed decisions information is needed (earlier in this thread someone said information is bad for you).
Anyhow, according to this Debian never had a choice ... :roll:
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby dasein » 2016-12-22 17:22

That blog piece unequivocally and egregiously misquotes and mischaracterizes the original presentation.

(Yeah, actual research is good.)
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby TonyVanDam » 2017-02-07 06:10

M51 wrote:I might check out Devuan for curiosity's sake, but these days I am running more and more on my own personal distro built out of LFS (no systemd). I still use Debian for some things I haven't yet finished, but that will change soon enough.

I was lazy in allowing systemd on the machine. Since all it really had to do was host some files I figured "How could it screw that up?" Apparently the answer is: "Completely".


Excuse me for being late in this thread. There are a few Debian-based distros like MX & antiX that you can try. :)
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby millpond » 2017-02-09 20:31

TonyVanDam wrote:
M51 wrote:I might check out Devuan for curiosity's sake, but these days I am running more and more on my own personal distro built out of LFS (no systemd). I still use Debian for some things I haven't yet finished, but that will change soon enough.

I was lazy in allowing systemd on the machine. Since all it really had to do was host some files I figured "How could it screw that up?" Apparently the answer is: "Completely".


Excuse me for being late in this thread. There are a few Debian-based distros like MX & antiX that you can try. :)


Worthy of consideration, certainly. But...

Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).
Do they directly interact with the Debian archives (with filters) - one of Devan's strengths.

I need something long term, and am NOT about to reinstall from scratch every few years. But it looks like I'll be going off grid as time goes by, as alot of the newer stuff i just compile in, bypassing Apt. (Yes i know I can add it into the database.... too lazy). (Just avoid system libs!!)
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby golinux » 2017-02-09 20:55

millpond wrote:Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).
Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?
May the FORK be with you!
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby sgage » 2017-02-09 23:21

I am finding Devuan to be very good, very solid. I've been using Devuan 'jessie' as my daily driver for a couple of months now (I use the MATE environment), but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Yes, things can seem slow on the site/discourse/forum, but if you post something there, people are on it, then it's not so slow :) I find myself wishing I was able to help more. I have been contributing as I am able.

If the whole systemd thing really bugs you, as it does me, you should check out devuan.org...
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby millpond » 2017-02-10 05:19

golinux wrote:
millpond wrote:Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).
Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?


Must be new.

Bookmarked.

Devuan Jessie is running fine on 64 bit (fresh install).
Its a little unstable on the 32 bit updated Jessie system, however, but not bad. Still very usable.

I'll be by soon...
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby anticapitalista » 2017-02-10 13:39

sgage wrote: ... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.


Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby golinux » 2017-02-10 14:13

millpond wrote:
golinux wrote:Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?
Must be new.
We got up and running the end of November. IRC is still the most active meeting place.

millpond wrote:I'll be by soon...
See ya there!
Last edited by golinux on 2017-02-10 15:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby golinux » 2017-02-10 14:17

anticapitalista wrote:
sgage wrote: ... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.
ascii will be getting more love after RC1 is released. It probably isn't an OOTB experience (I always run stable till EOL), but those who like to tinker and know their way around have no problems with it. Some devs are even running ceres!
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby sgage » 2017-02-10 15:06

anticapitalista wrote:
sgage wrote: ... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.


Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.


A lot has happened in the last several months! Ascii is a lot closer to Stretch now. The kernel is up to date, and most all of the programs I use are at the stretch level...
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby anticapitalista » 2017-02-10 16:34

sgage wrote:
anticapitalista wrote:
sgage wrote: ... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.


Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.


A lot has happened in the last several months! Ascii is a lot closer to Stretch now. The kernel is up to date, and most all of the programs I use are at the stretch level...


Good to know - thanks.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby millpond » 2017-02-10 18:23

golinux wrote:
millpond wrote:
golinux wrote:Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?
Must be new.
We got up and running the end of November. IRC is still the most active meeting place.

millpond wrote:I'll be by soon...
See ya there!


I've never been comfortable with live chat, perhaps from the bad experien ces in the ole days when AOL unleashed the kiddies onto the net.

Plus I have been developing an utterly irrational phobia over email. Cant explain it.

But i like the forum, a bit slow, but dont feel like every reply is reanimating a corpse. (Though I have always been partial to Lovecraft).

I generally dont like bleeding edge, except for programming languages. Indeed the machine I use the most cannot even run the really latest, as it is absitively ancient. But it is absolutely immune from any hanky panky fromthe new ring0 CPU bits. I dont let the new laptop anywhere near my network.

As to systemd, this is one dead horse that *should* be ritually flogged.
It IS a religious and philosophical battle in which systemd is merely a symbol, a rallying call. Like 'Remember the Alamo'.
Its the embodiment of co-operative community vs competitive corporatism. Systemd represents a symptom in the FOSS community in which specialized interest have trumped general welfare. The simple fact that hundreds of thousands of servers running on trusty old scripts would become deprecated by a uility that had no right on earth putzing with them, should be reason enough. I have seen systemd physically damage some of my own scripts.

It also bears repeating (even if endlessly) that the average user will never even notice systemd, or even know what in init script is. Or care. That is fine. But there needs to be a place in the Unix ecosystem where most (at least) of the Four Freedoms can still be expressed. Including the right to 'just say no' to any piece of software from an untrusted vendor. And for many of us, that is precisely what Redhat is. Debian is a major backbone, and the only real choice between a real distro, and redhat itself. Most of the others are complier based, which is nice for small systems, but dreadful for massive ones.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-03-10 19:05

millpond wrote:As to systemd, this is one dead horse that *should* be ritually flogged.
It IS a religious and philosophical battle in which systemd is merely a symbol, a rallying call. Like 'Remember the Alamo'.
Its the embodiment of co-operative community vs competitive corporatism. Systemd represents a symptom in the FOSS community in which specialized interest have trumped general welfare. The simple fact that hundreds of thousands of servers running on trusty old scripts would become deprecated by a uility that had no right on earth putzing with them, should be reason enough. I have seen systemd physically damage some of my own scripts.

It also bears repeating (even if endlessly) that the average user will never even notice systemd, or even know what in init script is. Or care. That is fine. But there needs to be a place in the Unix ecosystem where most (at least) of the Four Freedoms can still be expressed. Including the right to 'just say no' to any piece of software from an untrusted vendor. And for many of us, that is precisely what Redhat is. Debian is a major backbone, and the only real choice between a real distro, and redhat itself. Most of the others are complier based, which is nice for small systems, but dreadful for massive ones.

Such televangelist eloquence... If only you could have used this energy to help the Devuan project which is in dire need of volunteers.
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