systemd is destructive

[swirler]

(...)
Keeping in mind that much of Unix development with networks has been funded directly, or indirectly by DARPA - I have no doubts that there are some kind of exploits well hidden in the kernel coding or else probably a commonly used module. Look at Bash, which was probably the tip of the iceberg. But I do believe that the deepest layer exploits would be the most classified, to be used only in times of 'emergency' - lest their existence come to light. They do not really bother me, as they could just as easily shut the net down.(...)

And lose the wealth of information that makes the surveillance state possible in the first place, not to mention the worldwide scam known as "networked finance" ?

[Segfault]

Thanks for interesting links in this thread! I'm one of those weird ones who think to make informed decisions information is needed (earlier in this thread someone said information is bad for you).
Anyhow, according to this Debian never had a choice ...

[dasein]

That blog piece unequivocally and egregiously misquotes and mischaracterizes the original presentation.

(Yeah, actual research is good.)

[TonyVanDam]

I might check out Devuan for curiosity's sake, but these days I am running more and more on my own personal distro built out of LFS (no systemd). I still use Debian for some things I haven't yet finished, but that will change soon enough.

I was lazy in allowing systemd on the machine. Since all it really had to do was host some files I figured "How could it screw that up?" Apparently the answer is: "Completely".

Excuse me for being late in this thread. There are a few Debian-based distros like MX & antiX that you can try.

[millpond]

I might check out Devuan for curiosity's sake, but these days I am running more and more on my own personal distro built out of LFS (no systemd). I still use Debian for some things I haven't yet finished, but that will change soon enough.

I was lazy in allowing systemd on the machine. Since all it really had to do was host some files I figured "How could it screw that up?" Apparently the answer is: "Completely".

Excuse me for being late in this thread. There are a few Debian-based distros like MX & antiX that you can try.

Worthy of consideration, certainly. But...

Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).
Do they directly interact with the Debian archives (with filters) - one of Devan's strengths.

I need something long term, and am NOT about to reinstall from scratch every few years. But it looks like I'll be going off grid as time goes by, as alot of the newer stuff i just compile in, bypassing Apt. (Yes i know I can add it into the database.... too lazy). (Just avoid system libs!!)

[golinux]

Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).

Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?

[sgage]

I am finding Devuan to be very good, very solid. I've been using Devuan 'jessie' as my daily driver for a couple of months now (I use the MATE environment), but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Yes, things can seem slow on the site/discourse/forum, but if you post something there, people are on it, then it's not so slow I find myself wishing I was able to help more. I have been contributing as I am able.

If the whole systemd thing really bugs you, as it does me, you should check out devuan.org...

[millpond]

Do they have active forums (one of Devuans failings).

Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?

Must be new.

Bookmarked.

Devuan Jessie is running fine on 64 bit (fresh install).
Its a little unstable on the 32 bit updated Jessie system, however, but not bad. Still very usable.

I'll be by soon...

[anticapitalista]

... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.

[golinux]

Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?

Must be new.

We got up and running the end of November. IRC is still the most active meeting place.

I'll be by soon...

See ya there!

[golinux]

... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.

ascii will be getting more love after RC1 is released. It probably isn't an OOTB experience (I always run stable till EOL), but those who like to tinker and know their way around have no problems with it. Some devs are even running ceres!

[sgage]

... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.

A lot has happened in the last several months! Ascii is a lot closer to Stretch now. The kernel is up to date, and most all of the programs I use are at the stretch level...

[anticapitalista]

... but have used Devuan 'ascii" (basically equivalent to stretch) quite a bit, and it is very solid and shaping up nicely. I definitely recommend Devuan if you want to get away from systemd.

Is it really equivalent to stretch? Last I looked (admittedly several months back), most of the apps in Devuan ascii were well behind Debian stretch.

A lot has happened in the last several months! Ascii is a lot closer to Stretch now. The kernel is up to date, and most all of the programs I use are at the stretch level...

Good to know - thanks.

[millpond]

Are you aware that there is an 'alternate' Devuan forum?

Must be new.

We got up and running the end of November. IRC is still the most active meeting place.

I'll be by soon...

See ya there!

I've never been comfortable with live chat, perhaps from the bad experien ces in the ole days when AOL unleashed the kiddies onto the net.

Plus I have been developing an utterly irrational phobia over email. Cant explain it.

But i like the forum, a bit slow, but dont feel like every reply is reanimating a corpse. (Though I have always been partial to Lovecraft).

I generally dont like bleeding edge, except for programming languages. Indeed the machine I use the most cannot even run the really latest, as it is absitively ancient. But it is absolutely immune from any hanky panky fromthe new ring0 CPU bits. I dont let the new laptop anywhere near my network.

As to systemd, this is one dead horse that *should* be ritually flogged.
It IS a religious and philosophical battle in which systemd is merely a symbol, a rallying call. Like 'Remember the Alamo'.
Its the embodiment of co-operative community vs competitive corporatism. Systemd represents a symptom in the FOSS community in which specialized interest have trumped general welfare. The simple fact that hundreds of thousands of servers running on trusty old scripts would become deprecated by a uility that had no right on earth putzing with them, should be reason enough. I have seen systemd physically damage some of my own scripts.

It also bears repeating (even if endlessly) that the average user will never even notice systemd, or even know what in init script is. Or care. That is fine. But there needs to be a place in the Unix ecosystem where most (at least) of the Four Freedoms can still be expressed. Including the right to 'just say no' to any piece of software from an untrusted vendor. And for many of us, that is precisely what Redhat is. Debian is a major backbone, and the only real choice between a real distro, and redhat itself. Most of the others are complier based, which is nice for small systems, but dreadful for massive ones.

[deborah-and-ian]

As to systemd, this is one dead horse that *should* be ritually flogged.
It IS a religious and philosophical battle in which systemd is merely a symbol, a rallying call. Like 'Remember the Alamo'.
Its the embodiment of co-operative community vs competitive corporatism. Systemd represents a symptom in the FOSS community in which specialized interest have trumped general welfare. The simple fact that hundreds of thousands of servers running on trusty old scripts would become deprecated by a uility that had no right on earth putzing with them, should be reason enough. I have seen systemd physically damage some of my own scripts.

It also bears repeating (even if endlessly) that the average user will never even notice systemd, or even know what in init script is. Or care. That is fine. But there needs to be a place in the Unix ecosystem where most (at least) of the Four Freedoms can still be expressed. Including the right to 'just say no' to any piece of software from an untrusted vendor. And for many of us, that is precisely what Redhat is. Debian is a major backbone, and the only real choice between a real distro, and redhat itself. Most of the others are complier based, which is nice for small systems, but dreadful for massive ones.

Such televangelist eloquence... If only you could have used this energy to help the Devuan project which is in dire need of volunteers.

[millpond]

The problem is that 90% of the time online here is on an ancient 32 bit XP system, which I understand is problematic for doing any kind of developmental work these days. Devuan on this machine is technically an update atop Jesse, and still a bit buggy.

The good news is that I have 2 64 bit Win7 machines, and the newest has Devuan (installed on bare metal), I have been building it up as a development machine, but still have a ways to go. I am more than willing to help there (when I can get the machine away from the lil lady) - but need to know *what* to test.

I'll ask at the other forum...

[Deb-fan]

Jmo but systemd has never given me a single issue. Not the version that came default w Jessie, not the packages in backports, not the ones I installed from Sid repos.

Edit: honestly make that no issue that couldn't be solved quickly via common sense and re-search anyway.

Think people should get over it and simply face the fact that systemd is the future init system for gnu/nix and take some time to learn how to use it and how it works.

No shortage of info available on the topic. It's clearly technically superior in many ways to Sysv and provides a ridiculous number of ways to interact with it and a gnu/linux OS.

Just saying wish folks would place blame where it belongs and take responsibility for admin'ing or failure to bother learning to properly admin the os's and software they use. Things change, esp in tech. Some massively skilled techies decided it was time to implement a new init over one created in the 70's. Just the way it is, shrugs. Sheesh folks either roll up sleeves and learn/research or go w one of the many ways to use another of many options, systemd-shim, openrc, runit, upstart etc etc etc.

Though again how about placing blame where it belongs ? Just saying if x-user wants to be "lazy", install/use software they're totally unfamiliar with and aren't willing to learn anything about its use. To me pretty obvious where the fault lay.

Or of course stick with the lazy (non-competent) user trend that seems to have taken root, blame systemd, blame Debian for your lack of effort or skillset.

[Bulkley]

Jmo but systemd has never given me a single issue. Not the version that came default w Jessie, not the packages in backports, not the ones I installed from Sid repos.

Agreed. I never had a problem that I could blame systemd for. I have had some small problems that were essentially programs that weren't fully ready for systemd.

As I see it the real problem with systemd is philosophical. Systemd does not follow the Unix practice of each program doing one thing and doing it well. I have the same problem with systemd as with many other bloatware programs such as the bigger browsers and word processors. Do we really need a word processor that can send email? Do we need a browser to manage our files? Do we need an init system that captures the whole installation? (I know I didn't word that properly but you get the idea.)

[Deb-fan]

^Yeah get what you're saying there but honestly people much better qualified and likely forgotten more about software development and gnu/Linux than I'll ever know think systemd is needed and a step in the right direction.

I'm sure this is a decision that wasn't made lightly, equally sure people that weren't gifted techies would not be allowed to work on something that important, if they aren't qualified.

Sysv came out in the 70's, since then there's been all manner of patches added to it and an army of dirty hacks to get it to be able to do xyz to whatever degree but systemd clearly does things better. Based upon a bunch of reading-etc.

Avg personal gnu/nix user didn't know, nor care that Sysv was there and they'll have no reason to care that systemd took its place either. People much more tech literate than I am decided systemd is the way to go. In order to criticize them at the very least I'd have to be close to their level in terms of knowledge/skill.

Am not and feel confident saying overwhelming majority of systemd detractors have zero idea what they're talking about too. Would be like me trying to tell Micheal Jordan how to play basketball.

But that's one distinct element found in all grossly ignorant people in my experience. They're all blissfully unaware of how ignorant they are.

[edbarx]

I wouldn't claim systemd is destructive but a U-Turn in the way an init system is conceptualised. Taking the principle of doing one thing and doing it well, systemd is a definite departure from that. Is it wrong, is it right? I am afraid first we have to define and agree on what is right and what is wrong. Does systemd give users more choice? In this case, and considering how unrelated packages are made to depend on systemd, the answer seems an obvious 'no'.

I wouldn't try to bend backwards claiming any critic of systemd lacks knowledge or worse is ignorant. Systemd was initially an init system but now it is evolving into a cluster of software that was not part of an init system before. Is it bad, more specifically, for those who want to have more flexibility in how they set up their GNU/Linux system, does it increase flexibility in what one can install and in how one sets up their system? Unfortunately, the answer to this is 'no'. This means, GNU/Linux has moved another step in the direction of imitating proprietary operating systems where users are treated like clueless individuals who are satisfied by being provided with a basic computing experience.