systemd is destructive

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systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-21 01:09

I've been running linux generally, and Debian specifically for years and I have never seen a bigger cluster f&(% than systemd. I'd gotten lazy with one of my most recent setups of Debian Jessie and allowed the cancerous systemd to be installed...and regretted it.

What follows is my setup and what happened:

I have a machine set up to store recorded hdtv shows on btrfs. It runs a minimal XFCE desktop as I can't stand Gnome. An hour show is about 5GB and I have about 100 shows at any given time. The directory where the shows are stored is bind mounted to where my nfs exports are and it is exported as read only for a KODI client to view. I never had any trouble with this setup under Wheezy, but under Jessie with systemd I ran into an issue when clearing out old recordings. First, deleting them through Thunar took forever, and when deleting multiple files at the same time the weird shit started. A few of the files would get deleted, but at some point I'd get an error that the file couldn't be deleted because it was read-only. Skipping it would give the error on every subsequent file. Opening a terminal and running mount revealed that the entire root filesystem had been remounted read-only! Attempts to remount it read-write failed. Nothing relevant shows in the logs. Rebooting would begin normally but at some point (usually the point nfs exports are started) I'd see a btrfs error flash past and the system would stop booting, or it might make it all the way to a login prompt (but no X11). Logging in would reveal the entire root filesystem is irrevocably mounted read-only. Booting from a rescue disk and checking the btrfs filesystem reveals no problems. Rebooting the system repeatedly eventually will randomly allow it to make it to X11 normally like nothing ever happened! The next time I would clean multiple files off, the same thing would happen. The only recovery is a random number of reboots. One time it took nearly 20!

After that I was pissed off enough to completely remove systemd and replace it with sysvinit. Guess what? No problems ever since. I can delete any number of files without any slowdowns or bizarre remounting of my entire system as read-only without so much as a log message. My btrfs checks always come back clean.

F systemd !
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Danielsan » 2016-09-21 04:37

Currently systemd is f* my hp printer and I am having issue with cups because of it, I hope to resolve it soon. Just for the sake of the information with a laptop with Wheezy the printer is super fine... :roll:
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2016-09-21 07:18

Is there a bug report about this?
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-21 12:27

I honestly don't care if there is a bug report. Such a non-deterministic, over-complex, 'big ball of mud' non-design isn't worth troubleshooting or fixing.

I will never make the mistake of allowing it on my machines again. Even a suggested dependency is enough to make me look for alternative software.

For anyone developing software:

Using systemd's public API is poison.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Ardouos » 2016-09-21 13:48

M51 wrote:I honestly don't care if there is a bug report. Such a non-deterministic, over-complex, 'big ball of mud' non-design isn't worth troubleshooting or fixing.

I will never make the mistake of allowing it on my machines again. Even a suggested dependency is enough to make me look for alternative software.

For anyone developing software:

Using systemd's public API is poison.


I guess you will be keen on the release of Devuan.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-21 16:00

I might check out Devuan for curiosity's sake, but these days I am running more and more on my own personal distro built out of LFS (no systemd). I still use Debian for some things I haven't yet finished, but that will change soon enough.

I was lazy in allowing systemd on the machine. Since all it really had to do was host some files I figured "How could it screw that up?" Apparently the answer is: "Completely".
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Bulkley » 2016-09-21 17:44

Systemd is not destructive as such but it does seem to be that one has to opt all in or all out.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-21 21:37

Bulkley wrote:Systemd is not destructive as such but it does seem to be that one has to opt all in or all out.


It certainly seems destructive when it yanks your system out from under you for no good reason.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby phenest » 2016-09-21 22:06

Danielsan wrote:Currently systemd is f* my hp printer and I am having issue with cups because of it, I hope to resolve it soon. Just for the sake of the information with a laptop with Wheezy the printer is super fine... :roll:

I use an HP printer via blue-tooth and it works fine.
M51 wrote:
Bulkley wrote:Systemd is not destructive as such but it does seem to be that one has to opt all in or all out.


It certainly seems destructive when it yanks your system out from under you for no good reason.

And you're certain that systemd is at fault? Despite what you say in your first post about replacing it with sysvinit (thus curing the problem) I've not seen any of the problems that anyone has ever mentioned using systemd.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-21 22:35

phenest wrote:I use an HP printer via blue-tooth and it works fine.


Congratulations, but anecdotal "It works for me with my specific setup." doesn't help anyone and certainly doesn't preclude problems from existing. Funny, but that seems to be the general attitude of the systemd developers: "Tough luck. Works for me!"

phenest wrote:And you're certain that systemd is at fault? Despite what you say in your first post about replacing it with sysvinit (thus curing the problem) I've not seen any of the problems that anyone has ever mentioned using systemd.


No doubt it is systemd. I recreated it multiple times. Bringing back systemd brings back the problem. It could easily be that no one else has reported such a situation because no one else has my particular setup: UEFI, GPT partition, LVM2 volumes, Luks encryption, BTRFS, etc. The truth is systemd depends on f&(%ing everything, so who the hell knows what can trigger a bug in its bloated codebase. I have seen people with systemd problems where the system comes up stuck with a read-only root, but that is only part of the problem in this case.

For some technical examples of why systemd sucks:

http://ewontfix.com/14/

http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby dasein » 2016-09-22 08:46

M51 wrote:Congratulations, but anecdotal

So long as your N=1, so's yours.

(Just sayin')
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-22 12:59

dasein wrote:
M51 wrote:Congratulations, but anecdotal

So long as your N=1, so's yours.

(Just sayin')


Sure. :)

Though if you read the rest of the sentence I was saying that an anecdote doesn't preclude the possibility of an actual problem. Also, claiming "works for me" doesn't help the guy with the printer problem, seeing as phenest doesn't even know if it is the same model, interface, etc.

Could it be that my anecdotal evidence doesn't really indicate a problem with systemd? Sure, I'd grant that (remote) possibility. Plenty of people have f''d up systems. However I've tested it (on this one system, of course) pretty thoroughly and I am certain it is a problem with systemd. I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically. The fact that it does so under unknowable (without reading the source) conditions reveals one of systemd's biggest failings: It implements system policy in opaque code rather than leaving it to the system owner. That is simply 100% shitty-ass design. No reasonable developer can debate that and systemd is chock full of examples of exactly that kind of behavior. Reading the systemd changelog is some scary shit.

Using Debian with sysvinit will hold me over nicely until I can get everything moved over to my private distro.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby phenest » 2016-09-22 21:01

M51 wrote:Also, claiming "works for me" doesn't help the guy with the printer problem, seeing as phenest doesn't even know if it is the same model, interface, etc.

What printer problem? That "guy" didn't specify. That "guy" just blamed systemd. How can someone give help when they don't specify what the problem is.
M51 wrote:That is simply 100% shitty-ass design. No reasonable developer can debate that and systemd is chock full of examples of exactly that kind of behavior. Reading the systemd changelog is some scary shit.

If systemd is that bad "100% shitty-ass design", should everyone be affected? If some are affected and some are not, then perhaps it's the setup that's at fault. After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby golinux » 2016-09-22 21:13

phenest wrote:After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.
And here I thought Linux was about modularity and choice and doing things YOUR way. When did that change into 'do it our way if you want it to work'? Monolithic and zero choice comes to mind . . .
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-22 21:29

phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:Also, claiming "works for me" doesn't help the guy with the printer problem, seeing as phenest doesn't even know if it is the same model, interface, etc.

What printer problem? That "guy" didn't specify. That "guy" just blamed systemd. How can someone give help when they don't specify what the problem is.


He wasn't really asking for help. Assuming everyone who has trouble with systemd must be wrong is stupid.

phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:That is simply 100% shitty-ass design. No reasonable developer can debate that and systemd is chock full of examples of exactly that kind of behavior. Reading the systemd changelog is some scary shit.

If systemd is that bad "100% shitty-ass design", should everyone be affected?


If you really think that, then you probably ought not to comment on technical issues. Systems are complex, and systemd depends on everything including the kitchen sink when it comes to system state so it is largely non-deterministic, like Windows.

phenest wrote: If some are affected and some are not, then perhaps it's the setup that's at fault.


The systemd developers are often guilty of thinking that there is a "right way" and a "wrong way" for a system to be set up. They are typically wrong.

phenest wrote: After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.


LOL, that's the stupidest and funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks! :lol:
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