systemd is destructive

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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby phenest » 2016-09-22 22:00

golinux wrote:
phenest wrote:After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.
And here I thought Linux was about modularity and choice and doing things YOUR way. When did that change into 'do it our way if you want it to work'? Monolithic and zero choice comes to mind . . .

I'm not saying you don't have choice. But if you do change things, things could break.
M51 wrote:
phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:Also, claiming "works for me" doesn't help the guy with the printer problem, seeing as phenest doesn't even know if it is the same model, interface, etc.

What printer problem? That "guy" didn't specify. That "guy" just blamed systemd. How can someone give help when they don't specify what the problem is.


He wasn't really asking for help. Assuming everyone who has trouble with systemd must be wrong is stupid.

If he wasn't asking for help, then why did you accuse me of not being helpful?
M51 wrote:
phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:That is simply 100% shitty-ass design. No reasonable developer can debate that and systemd is chock full of examples of exactly that kind of behavior. Reading the systemd changelog is some scary shit.

If systemd is that bad "100% shitty-ass design", should everyone be affected?


If you really think that, then you probably ought not to comment on technical issues.

But calling it a "100% shitty-ass design" is technical, is it?
M51 wrote:
phenest wrote: After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.


LOL, that's the stupidest and funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks! :lol:

Is that the best comment you can make? I haven't seen any evidence of you putting up a technical argument. Perhaps you could give me an example of how systemd can break, along with methodology to achieve it. If I don't see it for myself, then I can't sympathise.
I don't have a problem with systemd, because I haven't done anything to break it. That doesn't mean I haven't changed anything about my setup, it's just that so far, nothing has broken due to what I've done. The default Debian installation works for me too.
Again, help me out. What do I do to make systemd "destructive"?
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby robert-e » 2016-09-22 22:24

@golinux: Forget phenest; if he were on another forum, he would be known as a "systemd fanboy", with all that entails.
@phenest: Keep on using systemd; you deserve it.

Regards,
Bob
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-22 22:38

phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:
phenest wrote:If systemd is that bad "100% shitty-ass design", should everyone be affected?


If you really think that, then you probably ought not to comment on technical issues.

But calling it a "100% shitty-ass design" is technical, is it?


Yes...yes it is. It also seems to be beyond you.
Denying the possibility of bugs because they don't affect everyone belies an ignorance too deep to comment on.

phenest wrote:
M51 wrote:
phenest wrote: After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.


LOL, that's the stupidest and funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks! :lol:


Is that the best comment you can make? I haven't seen any evidence of you putting up a technical argument. Perhaps you could give me an example of how systemd can break, along with methodology to achieve it. If I don't see it for myself, then I can't sympathise.


No, I can do much more, but you certainly aren't worth it, you tool. That you think there's a single right 'path' to follow and straying invites disaster is comical in the extreme. How do you get the courage to press keys on your keyboard?

No technical argument? Ha, I've already given you the basics...why don't you run off and do some testing? I don't care if you never see it and I certainly don't need your sympathy. But you do have mine. It must be difficult living so far below the intellectual capacity of others.

phenest wrote:I don't have a problem with systemd, because I haven't done anything to break it.


Ah yes, the famed systemd supporter rhetoric "It can't be systemd, it must be you." Sure, systemd is bug free and is made of ground unicorn infused with rainbows.

phenest wrote:Again, help me out. What do I do to make systemd "destructive"?


Just keep using it.
In fact, I insist.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby pendrachken » 2016-09-22 23:25

M51 wrote:
dasein wrote:
I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.



It's called the kernel. Something is going wrong with I/O and the kernel remounts the FS as RO and blocks RW remounts.

There are a few choices here:

1: kernel regression. maybe you pulled in the latest security updated kernel and it has a regression when you were lazy and let SystemD in.
2: crappy HDD controller. Either was crappy and was recoverable prior to now, or it just gave out recently.
3: dying HDD. I would take a damn close look at the S.M.A.R.T. stats on that drive / RAID array. Run both short and long tests, any failures means backup what data you want and toss the drive before it completely falls on its face.
4: combo of the above.
1 billionth place: SystemD is actually at fault. Not very likely since it doesn't have its own mount tool, just a tool for calling the system mount application.


Not that that means SystemD is great, I personally don't care one way or the other for or against it. I don't LIKE the bloat and throw everything, including the kitchen sink, into one big lump that the devs have with it; but that doesn't mean I actively hate it either.

The one thing I consider extremely stupid and short sighted is the damn binary logging, but at least I can dual log to the standard syslogs too.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-22 23:46

pendrachken wrote:
M51 wrote:
dasein wrote:
I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.



It's called the kernel. Something is going wrong with I/O and the kernel remounts the FS as RO and blocks RW remounts.

There are a few choices here:

1: kernel regression. maybe you pulled in the latest security updated kernel and it has a regression when you were lazy and let SystemD in.
2: crappy HDD controller. Either was crappy and was recoverable prior to now, or it just gave out recently.
3: dying HDD. I would take a damn close look at the S.M.A.R.T. stats on that drive / RAID array. Run both short and long tests, any failures means backup what data you want and toss the drive before it completely falls on its face.
4: combo of the above.
1 billionth place: SystemD is actually at fault. Not very likely since it doesn't have its own mount tool, just a tool for calling the system mount application.


Not that that means SystemD is great, I personally don't care one way or the other for or against it. I don't LIKE the bloat and throw everything, including the kitchen sink, into one big lump that the devs have with it; but that doesn't mean I actively hate it either.

The one thing I consider extremely stupid and short sighted is the damn binary logging, but at least I can dual log to the standard syslogs too.



1) I think you misunderstood, I was lazy and allowed systemd to be init when the machine was originally installed, not pulled in during an update. If it's a kernel regression it's a very interesting one because it only affects the system if systemd is acting as init.

2) Again, a hdd controller that only fails when systemd is acting as init?

3) SMART stats are fine. BTRFS checks are clean...again the problem only surfaces when systemd is acting as init.

4) See all of the above.

1 billionth place: But systemd can and will call tools to alter system state as it sees fit based on opaque policies baked into itself.

I can recreate or remove this problem repeatedly at will simply by changing from sysvinit to systemd.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby trinidad » 2016-09-24 13:06

M51

Looking through your original post unemotionally I offer that you may have a combination of problems here, both praxis and software compatibility which may be caused by several different things.

1) Make sure Thunar is the default file manager in systemd

2) Thunar when logged in as root will persist as root throughout the session requiring log out to reset. This can conflict in a way with systemd like you mention, only resolved with reboots, especially where handling large files (perhaps a bit impatiently) are concerned

3) Perhaps your XFCE version can/needs to be be upgraded

4) Autostart in XFCE and systemd can conflict at specific times because of the Debian normal no root login policy

5) XFCE works well with Ubuntu in highly modified distros like Linux Lite and SolydX, while the compatibility in Debian itself is incomplete.

6) Use a Commander style file manager, or the terminal, to work with large files faster.

7) Debian is not "specifically" designed to work with XFCE these days. You may have better luck on an XFCE forum, or run your XFCE on an Ubuntu based distro.

8) This is really not a Debian problem, but rather and XFCE problem. Best to let go the past and move on. XFCE is good Linux, and systemd is good Linux. That doesn't mean mixing them together is better Linux.

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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-24 13:34

trinidad wrote:M51

Looking through your original post unemotionally I offer that you may have a combination of problems here, both praxis and software compatibility which may be caused by several different things.

1) Make sure Thunar is the default file manager in systemd

2) Thunar when logged in as root will persist as root throughout the session requiring log out to reset. This can conflict in a way with systemd like you mention, only resolved with reboots, especially where handling large files (perhaps a bit impatiently) are concerned

3) Perhaps your XFCE version can/needs to be be upgraded

4) Autostart in XFCE and systemd can conflict at specific times because of the Debian normal no root login policy

5) XFCE works well with Ubuntu in highly modified distros like Linux Lite and SolydX, while the compatibility in Debian itself is incomplete.

6) Use a Commander style file manager, or the terminal, to work with large files faster.

7) Debian is not "specifically" designed to work with XFCE these days. You may have better luck on an XFCE forum, or run your XFCE on an Ubuntu based distro.

8) This is really not a Debian problem, but rather and XFCE problem. Best to let go the past and move on. XFCE is good Linux, and systemd is good Linux. That doesn't mean mixing them together is better Linux.

TC


You've got to be kidding me. Almost everything you posted is complete nonsense or irrelevant.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-09-24 13:48

In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:
Code: Select all
KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-24 14:44

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:
Code: Select all
KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?



I appreciate you trying to help, but as far as I am concerned the problem is fixed: I removed systemd. My system is completely stable and faster without systemd.

I didn't post to get help (thus the choice of the general discussion forum), but rather just to let people know the issue exists. I did the testing I needed to isolate the problem (systemd) and remove it.
I have no interest in troubleshooting systemd itself, and the chance of systemd ever being PID1 on any of my machines again is precisely zero.

For those who like reading and are of a technical bent:

http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd
http://ewontfix.com/14/
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby cpoakes » 2016-09-25 08:09

phenest wrote:After all, if you not satisfied with keeping Debian as the Debian devs intended, then you're asking for trouble.

Educate yourself. The Debian devs choose systemd as Jessie's default init system and never intended for it to be the only init system. In fact they put a lot of work into designing and coding the systemd-shim to implement the features and formerly independent packages absorbed by systemd with the users choice of init system: sysvinit, openrc, upstart, runit, or even busybox init.

I have no experience with sid or stretch but have heard rumblings this may no longer be true. Can anyone comment?
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby golinux » 2016-09-25 14:43

IIRC systemd-shim came from Cannoical so upstart would work alongside systemd. Now that upstart is no longer, systemd-shim has been orphaned. This from the dng ML in July:

By the way, the systemd-shim package was orphaned in Debian (bug
#832508). Neither the current maintainers nor upstream are interested in
it anymore.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby phenest » 2016-09-25 14:49

robert-e wrote:@golinux: Forget phenest; if he were on another forum, he would be known as a "systemd fanboy", with all that entails.
@phenest: Keep on using systemd; you deserve it.

Regards,
Bob

I'm not a fanboy. I can't help it if it works on my system. After all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One day it might break and then I'll fix it.
All I'm trying to do is take an interest in the problems that others are having with systemd. It might prove useful one day. Then again, it probably won't because the only technical data I ever read is: "it's shit" or "it sucks".
But I don't see how it's "destructive". Some have broken systems because of it, but they chose a different init system and all is well again. The default init system in Debian now is systemd. Given there are other choices, what's the need for these threads? If it was the only init system, I'd understand.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby dasein » 2016-09-25 15:07

dasein wrote: I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.

Just for the record, I said no such thing. I've already said everything I feel moved to say regarding systemd in another thread. This thread is just another fact-free fapfest from the egregiously ignorant and misinformed.

If y'all insist on utterly pointless bickering about something you don't really understand, flogging a horse that's not only long dead but badly decomposed, then by all means knock yourselves out. But don't misquote me to do it.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby M51 » 2016-09-25 16:46

dasein wrote:
dasein wrote: I also know of no other component that can remount root out from under you automatically.

Just for the record, I said no such thing. I've already said everything I feel moved to say regarding systemd in another thread. This thread is just another fact-free fapfest from the egregiously ignorant and misinformed.

If y'all insist on utterly pointless bickering about something you don't really understand, flogging a horse that's not only long dead but badly decomposed, then by all means knock yourselves out. But don't misquote me to do it.


I was the one who said that about systemd because that was the primary symptom it presented on my machine. Someone attributed the statement to you, accidentally I presume.

I agree with almost everything you said in that other thread.

People can deny that the bug I experienced is real if they so choose. I'm sure people will discover systemd's lack of stability the hard way eventually.

I've said all I came to say as well.
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Re: systemd is destructive

Postby jibberjabber » 2016-09-25 17:39

by phenest » Given there are other choices, what's the need for these threads?

Trolls get hungry, so they need these kind of threads to feed them.
One good thing about these kind of threads , it helps keep them out of the other threads and topics where Debian Users are really trying to solve the problems
or get help solving the problems they have.
For example,
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:In respect of the actual problem, try editing the file at /etc/systemd/logind.conf and un-comment and change these two lines:
Code: Select all
KillUserProcesses=yes
KillExcludeUsers=

See logind.conf(5) for more.

Does the problem then still persist if you reboot with systemd as PID1?


and then the OP admits they have no interest in learning how to use a system
with systemd, all they are interested in is whining and ranting about how bad
it is.
by M51 » I didn't post to get help (thus the choice of the general discussion forum), but rather just to let people know the issue exists. I did the testing I needed to isolate the problem (systemd) and remove it.
I have no interest in troubleshooting systemd itself, and the chance of systemd ever being PID1 on any of my machines again is precisely zero.

And so finally :

by M51 » I've said all I came to say as well.


Well that is good , glad to hear that, maybe you can mark the topic as solved
or finished or something, and close it.
thank you
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