[sid] yeah, i broke it...

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[sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby wizard10000 » 2016-11-26 20:18

One thing about Sid; he keeps me humble.

:)

I haven't broken a Linux installation badly enough to justify a reinstall in about eight years and I was fairly proud of that fact. Well, I got distracted during an update and
  • broke Rule Number One and didn't pay attention to what apt was offering to remove The best part about this is that I had been holding for several days because upgrades looked unsafe :roll:
  • apt-listbugs didn't say anything, probably because it wasn't a bug :lol:
  • ran apt autoclean afterward, so now the package archives for those 29 packages are no longer local, and
  • since it looks like xorg was in the middle of transitioning, the packages that were removed are no longer available.
So, with about half of xorg gone i manage to piece together enough of X that both fluxbox and plasma5 ran but mouse and keyboard refused to cooperate. Couldn't even switch terminals if X was running; I knew the name of the package I needed but it was no longer available in the archives and getting it from https://snapshot.debian.org sounded a bit like dependency hell so I decided to reinstall.

I have a nightly dpkg dump of packages I have installed. Using this to restore installed packages worked not at all because of the twentysomething package names that had changed between the time my cron job made the dump and when I did the upgrade. Nice.

I had to manually parse this 2000-line text file and compare it to synaptic output to make sure I got all my applications reinstalled, which took the better part of a day and a half.

In the end there was only one casualty; a fancy right-click desktop menu I'd grabbed from http://kde-apps.org and that same applet refuses to install with nasty error messages telling the developer to fix his code, so it doesn't appear that's happening but everything else is back to normal :)

Lesson learned. Again. Focus when upgrading a development distribution :mrgreen:
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-26 20:27

..or roll back to yesterday's snapshot 8)
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby wizard10000 » 2016-11-26 20:51

pylkko wrote:..or roll back to yesterday's snapshot 8)


Being kinda old-school I've resisted LVM for quite some time :)
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby anticapitalista » 2016-11-26 21:53

RTFT (Terninal) - a must for those of us using sid. sid can be ruthless, you mess up just once, and .. kaput!
As they say (whoever they are) 'Patience is a virtue ...' (I'll let you google the rest and the source) :)
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-26 22:25

Well, I remember when you said in the backup thread that you use this method, and I thought that it sounds like really good idea. Primarily because, well, there is little effort involved compared to full system backups and systems don't brake that often if you know what you are doing. Also, reinstalling every now and then you can make other changes to the OS that might be hard or impossible without starting from scratch. However, I never thought much about what would happen when packages in the repo no longer correspond to the ones in your dumped list. Intersting. I think I would use this method for a machine with little packages and on stable (like a home server or something) but maybe not for a dev OS system.

I currently run a Sid system on btrfs and one clear advantage is that a snapshot can be made in less time than a dpkg dump. But of course, if you consider LVM "too new" then... I have been using it on a daily basis for something like 6 months without problems.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby wizard10000 » 2016-11-26 23:31

pylkko wrote:...However, I never thought much about what would happen when packages in the repo no longer correspond to the ones in your dumped list. Intersting.


TBH it quit being interesting about five seconds after I figured out the restore wasn't gonna work :)

pylkko wrote:I currently run a Sid system on btrfs and one clear advantage is that a snapshot can be made in less time than a dpkg dump. But of course, if you consider LVM "too new" then... I have been using it on a daily basis for something like 6 months without problems.


That's not it; what does make me a little nervous is Yet Another Layer between my data and userspace. Being able to roll back is a strong argument, though - especially running Sid. Maybe on the new-to-me laptop sitting under the Christmas tree :)
we see things not as they are, but as we are.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby dasein » 2016-11-27 00:56

wizard10000 wrote:...what does make me a little nervous is Yet Another Layer between my data and userspace.

Couldn't agree more. (Huge surprise, huh?)

I've never been able to convince myself that LVM adds value commensurate with its complexity.

@Wiz10K: You definitely got the skillz, so if this is your first time breaking Sid, then you're simply not trying hard enough. :razz:
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-27 21:39

two small things:

1) when I said that I hve run Sid on btrfs for 6 month without problems I meant it only with respect to btrfs... :lol:

2) I have never and probably will never use LVM because of the extra unnecessary complexity
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby No_windows » 2016-11-28 00:29

[quote="pylkko"
2) I have never and probably will never use LVM because of the extra unnecessary complexity[/quote]

What's complex about it? I've installed Debian with LVM, and have never encountered any kind of complexity, but I've never tried to change volume sizes or really used it for anything, either. Am I slowing my computer down by using it?
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby dasein » 2016-11-28 01:58

No_windows wrote:I've ... never encountered any kind of complexity, but I've never ... really used it for anything, either.

In other words, you're saying it's superfluous?

To paraphrase Strunk and White's Elements of Style (with deepest apologies)
Good technology is concise. A technology should contain no unnecessary parts, a program no unnecessary routines or dependencies, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts.


It's a philosophical thing. (Anyone truly interested in such deep philosophical questions should read Winograd & Flores' Understanding Computers and Cognition. It will change how you think about technology.)

(Sorry for the hijack.)
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby Bulkley » 2016-11-28 03:06

dasein wrote:To paraphrase Strunk and White's Elements of Style (with deepest apologies)
Good technology is concise. A technology should contain no unnecessary parts, a program no unnecessary routines or dependencies, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts.


Agreed. Remember the Commodore 64? It had a word processing program called Paper Clip composed of some of the finest programming ever. It had to be; on a 64 there was no room for slop. As processors got faster and drives and memory got bigger programming got sloppier.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby No_windows » 2016-11-28 03:24

dasein wrote:
No_windows wrote:I've ... never encountered any kind of complexity, but I've never ... really used it for anything, either.

In other words, you're saying it's superfluous?


For me, probably. I'm a fairly basic desktop user, However.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby millpond » 2016-11-28 08:26

Personally, I never delete an installed package, at least not until I am happy with its successor (which I then archive in its place).

It also allows you to extract the contents directly, when APT gives hissy fits.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby sunrat » 2016-11-29 01:56

siduction forums Upgrade Warnings is a great resource for Sid users. Often someone will have a breakage and post it there so you can hold off until an all-clear is given. Of course you may be the first to experience a d-u problem, then it's polite to post and warn others.
I visited there earlier and Sid has several transitions happening currently, so upgrading may be perilous.
https://forum.siduction.org/index.php?board=22.0
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Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby edbarx » 2016-11-29 08:36

dasein wrote:
To paraphrase Strunk and White's Elements of Style (with deepest apologies)


Good technology is concise. A technology should contain no unnecessary parts, a program no unnecessary routines or dependencies, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts.


An idealisation of what technology should be in the eyes of an idealist who hasn't yet realised how complex reality is. I expect a quote like this from an intellectually gifted young adolescent, but definitely, NOT from an adult past the age of thirty.

Living cells work, yet internally, they are extremely complex. Even a DNA has redundant genes which further contradict this idealist philosophy.

According to the quote, a DNA is a bad design. Living cells, are nanotechnological systems that occur naturally. :roll: :shock:
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