[sid] yeah, i broke it...

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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby millpond » 2016-11-29 09:37

edbarx wrote:
dasein wrote:
To paraphrase Strunk and White's Elements of Style (with deepest apologies)


Good technology is concise. A technology should contain no unnecessary parts, a program no unnecessary routines or dependencies, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts.


An idealisation of what technology should be in the eyes of an idealist who hasn't yet realised how complex reality is. I expect a quote like this from an intellectually gifted young adolescent, but definitely, NOT from an adult past the age of thirty.

Living cells work, yet internally, they are extremely complex. Even a DNA has redundant genes which further contradict this idealist philosophy.

According to the quote, a DNA is a bad design. Living cells, are nanotechnological systems that occur naturally. :roll: :shock:


Not quite true. Despite the extrme complexity of some DNA, often largely derived from viral and other sources - organisms do prefer simplicity, and unnecessary functions will after a period be lost. To minimize complexity.

Think cave species that lose eye and pigment.

Think reason why we cannot digest cellulose. Or make all our fats and amino acids. Like bacteria do.

Keep in mind also that introns, long believed to be useless because they do not encode genes, may actually be a means for modulating, or even frame shifting gene expression.

This is a key omission in the theory used to create GMOs, and why they may be ultimately quite dangerous.


So the complexity in the human genome may actually be useful, but Entropy can also apply to biology, species can and do degenrate over time (regression to infantile forms - snakes and humans).
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Intelligent design is garbage

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-29 09:56

Edbarx wrote:An idealisation of what technology should be in the eyes of an idealist who hasn't yet realised how complex reality is. I expect a quote like this from an intellectually gifted young adolescent, but definitely, NOT from an adult past the age of thirty.

Living cells work, yet internally, they are extremely complex. Even a DNA has redundant genes which further contradict this idealist philosophy.

According to the quote, a DNA is a bad design. Living cells, are nanotechnological systems that occur naturally. :roll: :shock:

I disagree, with your point, but also with your out right rudeness. It's really uncalled for.

Most people, save some real "whack jobs", would argue that DNA was not designed. Furthermore, non-coding genes -and that's what I believe you are referring to - are by no means "redundant". And if we want to be pedantic, it certainly is not the case that DNA "has genes".

The only real problems that I see dasein's norm is that I would maybe include the clause "to the extent that it is possible and feasible to do in the time and resource limitations present". Sometimes (often) refactoring/redesigning a design just to get rid of some unnecessary or now obsolete elements is just not worth the ordeal. Also there is the problem always related to norms: who get's to decide and on what basis if something is "necessary" or not. And maybe thirdly, sometimes designs might have so called "preadaptive" non-functional elements. That is, elements in place that currently have no use but which attempt to preempt some future use (like some API element in a library/program).
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby edbarx » 2016-11-29 11:16

Most people, save some real "whack jobs", would argue that DNA was not designed. Furthermore, non-coding genes -and that's what I believe you are referring to - are by no means "redundant". And if we want to be pedantic, it certainly is not the case that DNA "has genes".

You are right about rudeness, but you should remember this dasein, is not impeccable... rudeness is in their blood.

Of course DNA was not designed: it evolved, but that does not exclude it from using the laws of physics, mechanics and chemistry which happen to also be used in technology. The DNA, has non-coding genes, and in agreement with your view, research is indicating these are genes that may be used in turning on and off coding genes.

What I said about the DNA, is that there are protein coding genes that are redundant. In fact, as an organism, we humans, get two complete copies at conception. So, half of them are technically dormant unless they happen to be passed forward to the offspring from both parents.

This clearly contradicts the quote posted by dasein. And yes, it is idealist to assume everything must be self contained and simple. Such idealism shows a detachment from reality which works and is very complex.
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-29 11:56

edbarx wrote:You are right about rudeness, but you should remember this dasein, is not impeccable... rudeness is in their blood.

I have to disagree there again. While I have witnessed dasein be "whitty" or "snarky" at times I have never seen her/him make inflammatory ad hominen attacks like that. Besides, why are you bringing this up? I never said that he is impeccable?? Is it supposed to be some kind of contest?
Of course DNA was not designed: it evolved, but that does not exclude it from using the laws of physics, mechanics and chemistry which happen to also be used in technology.

Yeah... he was talking about design and you brought up that gene analogy to "debunk" his claim. Since genes and DNA are not designed I really don't see why a norm of design should be affected by the existence of genes...
What I said about the DNA, is that there are protein coding genes that are redundant.

Sorry but the large consensus is that anything that is "conserved" is by definition not redundant, even if you don't know what it's function is.
In fact, as an organism, we humans, get two complete copies at conception. So, half of them are technically dormant unless they happen to be passed forward to the offspring from both parents.

Yes but there are good solid theories about the reasons why both asexual and sexual reproduction exist.
This clearly contradicts the quote posted by dasein. And yes, it is idealist to assume everything must be self contained and simple. Such idealism shows a detachment from reality which works and is very complex.

No it does no such thing. Although agree that if some one has the idea that things need to be really neat and self-contained it can be a political/cultural/personal preference and especially when we argue over how much of that we want or don't want. But then again, dasein was probably proposing his view as, well, his view. Don't you think?
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby edbarx » 2016-11-29 12:14

pylkko wrote:he was talking about design and you brought up that gene analogy to "debunk" his claim. Since genes and DNA are not designed I really don't see why a norm of design should be affected by the existence of genes...

I brought about the DNA because it works and is absolutely not simple. While I can understand your angry state of mind, please, do make an effort to understand what I wrote, instead of letting yourself to be fixated to contradict anything I wrote.

The way you are replying to me, gives the impression you are replying to an idiot, geeeez...
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Re: [sid] yeah, i broke it...

Postby pylkko » 2016-11-29 12:25

Sorry, I didn't mean that.

Let's just say that LVM, for me, for example, already the simple fact that I have to remember more commands make it more complex and off-putting. This attitude might not be entirely rational, I admit.
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