GNOME default for Stretch?

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GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby sunrat » 2016-12-02 23:25

It seems to be a common opinion among regular users here that GNOME is the worst of the popular desktop environments. I believe it is still default for Stretch. Why?
I know this will open a can of worms, but it needs to be opened.

Personally, I installed it once and used for a few hours of "why can't I do this thing I did with $(other DE)" and went back to KDE, never to return. Actually using Xfce now but may return to KDE Plasma 5 sometime.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-02 23:47

sunrat wrote:It seems to be a common opinion among regular users here that GNOME is the worst of the popular desktop environments

I would respectfully disagree, I installed a fresh stretch system a few days ago and chose GNOME (3.22 atm); the desktop is beautiful to use, IMO.

viewtopic.php?p=630371#p630371

I'm not sure if it's still the default though (debootstrap & tasksel ftw!), have you tried the latest ISO?

https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-ins ... 6/20161112

Why?

Has the situation changed substantially since the jessie evaluation?

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDesktop/R ... ion/Jessie
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby acewiza » 2016-12-03 01:32

Like some things in life, you're only going to get out of a DE what you put into it. I've know people who sat in front of a Windows XP desktop for years and still couldn't find the Control Panel. Gnome take a little getting used to, but once you do and lean some of the ins-and-outs, it's a far more efficient interface for power users.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-03 02:29

by sunrat » I know this will open a can of worms, but it needs to be opened.

You are right on that,...but it should be interesting.

by acewiza » but once you do and lean some of the ins-and-outs, it's a far more efficient interface for power users.


I respectfully and totally disagree on that, but then I am not positive I know what
you mean by "power user", I do not think I am one of those,
but then , I am probably not what they call a "normal " or "regular" user either,...
I do agree, with H_O_A_S, I even commented on his screen shot, it is
pretty or "beautiful", but what I disagree on, with all due respect,...

The most efficient "interface" (at least for users like me) , I am not sure
what kind of user I am,is still
the "Command Line Interface",.... yea the good old:
Booting, maybe a "splash screen" but I prefer
to have it boot and it tells me everything as it boots.
And then:
Code: Select all
 login: Garry
password: not-telling-here
Me@mysystem:~$ hello
Me@mysystem:~$ hello, Garry, what do you want ?
Me@mysystem:~$ I don't know
Me@mysystem:~$ I am sorry that is not a valid command, please try ? or help
Me@mysystem:~$ help
Me@mysystem:~$HELP(1)                     General Commands Manual                    HELP(1)

NAME
     help - help for new users and administrators

DESCRIPTION
     This document is meant to familiarize new users and system administrators
     with OpenBSD and, if necessary, UNIX in general.

     Firstly, a wealth of information is contained within the system manual
     pages.  In UNIX, the man(1) command is used to view them.  Type man man
     for instructions on how to use it properly.  Pay especially close
     attention to the -k option.
#---------------snip------
Me@mystem:~$


To me , the Desktop Environments (DE) are mostly just adornment, some look
better then others, like "make up" on pretty women,... but they do not
really serve any useful purpose,...it is fun playing around with them
though,...
I don't know why Gnome, is chosen as the "default" DE on Debian,...
Actually, I am not sure it is, all my Debian installations started with
just a "base" system, I did not "choose" a default DE, I installed one
later, On Squeeze, it was Gnome, but later I started installing a WM
instead, "OpenBox", I still do keep a DE, actually a extension of gnome,
"mate", but that is mostly so it is easier for my wife, she is some what
"computer illiterate" maybe that makes her a "power user", ?
.....Besides , it (the DE) looks pretty, when I close the terminal, and
am not doing anything, it is prettier, then looking at a blank screen with
nothing but a $ or Me@mystem:~$
After a few minuets , if I do not do anything it goes "black" and sleeps, any way,
so ,......... so anyway,....guess that is all for now,.......

----------------edited---------one last note----------------------------------
by acewiza » I've know people who sat in front of a Windows XP desktop for years and still couldn't find the Control Panel.

Wow, for years ?, Give them 100 points for patience ,.....I only lasted
5 minuets, and could not find any command prompt,....that is why
Windows, and DE 's that are so much like windows, frustrate me,.....
Where is the command prompt ?...... Never mind,
Installed "Free Dos", bye bye windows XP, at least with DOS I had
the CLI,.... later I installed "Knoppix"
And at least it comes with a CLI ,.......
Before WindowsXP, all I used was older DOS versions, I mean really old,
IE : MS Dos, 1.1, up to 6. and online, it was 'Unix', until Linux came into
the scene, The first versions of windows, did not work, and crashed, my PC,
,.....then I kind of dropped out of doing anything with computers for a few years.
When, I did get back into using one, Windows XP, was what was popular,...I do
not understand why,...so I got rid of it,...at least FreeDos has a CLI,....
DE's just make everything more complicated, slow the system down, and make
it take longer to download the OS, if there is no option, and you have some
DE forced on you, because it is "popular", so the developers, include it,.....Like it or not, I don't think I need that kind of OS,
....but at least, as far as I know, fortunately you still have the option to not
install a DE on Debian and there are other choices, you do not have to waste
a bunch of time and space installing Gnome, ....you can install another DE, or none at all.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby phenest » 2016-12-03 09:55

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
sunrat wrote:It seems to be a common opinion among regular users here that GNOME is the worst of the popular desktop environments

I would respectfully disagree, I installed a fresh stretch system a few days ago and chose GNOME (3.22 atm); the desktop is beautiful to use, IMO.

+1
It's quite a refreshing approach and kudos to Gnome for taking that step away from the old, dusty look made popular by Windows '95. I can't understand why so many dislike Gnome.
sunrat wrote:I know this will open a can of worms, but it needs to be opened.

It will certainly open a can of worms, but I don't see the need to open it on purpose. It will just end up with another to and fro debate like all the ones before it with no conclusion.
If you download the Debian DVD iso, it gives a choice of which DE(s) you want installed, yes? So what's the problem here? Why does the default need to be changed?
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby phenest » 2016-12-03 10:14

GarryRicketson wrote:Before WindowsXP, all I used was older DOS versions, I mean really old,
IE : MS Dos, 1.1, up to 6. and online, it was 'Unix', until Linux came into
the scene, The first versions of windows, did not work, and crashed, my PC,
,.....then I kind of dropped out of doing anything with computers for a few years.
When, I did get back into using one, Windows XP, was what was popular,...I do
not understand why,...so I got rid of it,...at least FreeDos has a CLI,....
DE's just make everything more complicated, slow the system down, and make
it take longer to download the OS, if there is no option, and you have some
DE forced on you, because it is "popular", so the developers, include it,.....Like it or not, I don't think I need that kind of OS,
....but at least, as far as I know, fortunately you still have the option to not
install a DE on Debian and there are other choices, you do not have to waste
a bunch of time and space installing Gnome, ....you can install another DE, or none at all.

With all that said Garry, can I assume you don't use a DE and just use a CLI? What about all those commands you have to remember with options to go with them along with syntax, etc. DE's do away with all that, which is why DE's are so popular. But every DE includes a terminal for CLI work. The best of both worlds' you might say.

Personally, I prefer a DE that requires little searching to find something. I don't want fancy menus, dialogs, etc with loads of options to tweak stuff. I just want to use the damn computer without the fiddly bits. But I also use a terminal for some things such as, video encoding, compiling software, editing text files, and I use a lot of home-made bash scripts.

If anyone wants to see a really terrible DE, then have a look at Windows 10. There are Settings and also the Control Panel which tends to open further dialogs, and don't get me started on the Start Menu! Gnome 3 is a work of art compared.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby acewiza » 2016-12-03 14:55

GarryRicketson wrote:...I am not positive I know what you mean by "power user"

My definition of a power user is a sysadmin-type with numerous applications, terminals and consoles open on numerous workspaces, accessing apps and management utilities on remote servers right along with all the "other stuff" like email, word processing and web browsing, concurrently. The user with a DE like Gnome is more productive in that environment than with any legacy menu-type interface. There is of course no substitute for the command line, which is what it is, and will always be there, a necessary cog in the wheels.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-03 15:32

With all that said Garry, can I assume you don't use a DE and just use a CLI? What about all those commands you have to remember with options to go with them along with syntax, etc. DE's do away with all that, which is why DE's are so popular. But every DE includes a terminal for CLI work. The best of both worlds' you might say-----

No, one should never just "assume" anything,
I do, use a Windows Manager, WM , OpenBox, mostly, ....also do have
a DE, and to some extent use it a little,......like I mentioned, mostly that is
for my wife,
You are right, on we can have the "best" of both worlds,..... I like the
"tint2" panel very much,...for example,...with it,...instead of typing out
' firefox http://forums.debian.net ' , I just click the little "firefox" icon in the
panel,....
What about all those commands you have to remember with options to go with them along with syntax

I never can remember them, no need to,....mostly I keep a text file, with notes,....
depending, on the task,...and simply copy/paste the command ,....
I use the 'history' command, often, and for example, let's say I have to do
something new, that I never have done before.
A regular normal DE, probably , usually does not have the task in any of the
menus either,...so there really is no option, but to use the CLI, or spend hours
and hours searching for some, "script" or app, that can be installed, and then
give you a "clickme button", in a menu,....maybe.
First I look , for and think about what commands I will need to run, in order
to perform the task,...once I have that, I start, ,.....let's say, there are 3 commands
I need to perform this task, or 3 steps,....so the 1st step (command),
I write it, and if it works out ok, I am done, and move on
to the next step,...next command, run that, and then the 3rd,...
ok, expecially when it is something difficult to remember, and if
it is a task I will be doing again sometime , ... I have everything
I did, in my 'history',....so I copy/paste those lines, into a text file,
with a name, that describes what it is for, so the next time I need
to perform that task or something similar, all I do is open the text file, ...
select, copy/paste each line into the terminal, as needed.
Some times, I even use the 'history', and text file, to write a simple
script, that can be started with just one word, ' ./dothis-chore.sh ' or .pl
depending,........ I do like and use a file manager, that any WM ,or DE includes,
So yes sometimes, I use a DE or WM as well,....however after all said and
done, one can still perform any task they need to, even if and when the DE
is not avialable, does not work, or does not include any menu for that task.
Without the DE, one can still operate, but without the terminal,...one is
kind of "dead in the water" so to speak,......to me that is not very efficient,
the DE is a application, but if it fails, it should not mean you can not still
continue with your work, and the system keep running.
I do agree the DE, or a WM make things easier, and at time faster,
seeing that you posted, while writeing:
----------- utilities on remote servers

That is a interesting point, and I kind of chuckle, because so many times
we have had these kind of "power users" come to the forum, and they are
totally lost, because the have no DE or GUI, when they access a remote server,
via ssh,...... with that said,... I have some chores to do,
...any way I enjoy the discussion.
I do like to have menus, etc,... that have the more "routine" tasks easy to
select and run, by just clicking a button, or icon, etc,.....but it is tragic, how
most of the modern "powere users" are so dependent on that.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby acewiza » 2016-12-03 16:41

GarryRicketson wrote:
----------- utilities on remote servers

That is a interesting point, and I kind of chuckle, because so many times
we have had these kind of "power users" come to the forum, and they are
totally lost, because the have no DE or GUI, when they access a remote server,
via ssh,......

Try managing or using geodata or any other big data systems for that matter with a command line and see how far you get.

Chuckle.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-03 18:18

I think maybe we are looking at 2 different things, but also,..
we are really getting into another topic,....
Try managing or using geodata or any other big data systems for that matter
If the application can not be started from the command line, I would
consider that a big inconvenience,.....Most application have their own GUI, it does
not matter how you start the app,.... from Icon, and menu, on some DE, or from the terminal,...
once the application is running, the DE has very little if anything to do with it.
In this day and age, probably more important since so much is done online,
is the browser, for many, that really is the DE, for example, Firefox, looks and works the same no matter which DE you have, it also looks and works the same if
I start it from the command line, or terminal,...which for me is more convenient
because that is where I am all ready,....and if need be I open a new terminal,
so I have the browser running in one, and can continue with what ever in
the other.
Another example, maybe not as "big" as the one you mention,....but I use
'scribus" a lot, and it has a very nice GUI, it is rather complex and since I am
just "scratching the surface", on using it,...all though via CLI, it is even more
efficient and versatile, because of the complexity, for a beginner like me,
the GUI is more easy, and would appear to be more efficient.
Another, Image Magic,....has a nice GUI, but if one knows the app well
it is much more effeciant, via command line,..........I can do things with Image Magic,
that I could never do with most of the other graphics programs. I will admit, on that
there are a couple of things, if and when need be, I type "gimp" at the prompt,...
and it is easier to use that, then search and look for the correct command,syntax, etc. on Image Magic,...Gimp has it's own GUI, the DE is irrelevant.

But any way, we all work out what ever methods work best for us,
and that gets back to the topic, I do not know why Gnome is chosen to be
the default, DE,
I believe it is still default for Stretch. Why?
(if it is), but I do not like the idea of somebody else deciding what DE I should have installed as default,....

sunrat wrote:It seems to be a common opinion among regular users here that GNOME is the worst of the popular desktop environments. I believe it is still default for Stretch. Why?
I know this will open a can of worms, but it needs to be opened.

Personally, I installed it once and used for a few hours of "why can't I do this thing I did with $(other DE)" and went back to KDE, never to return. Actually using Xfce now but may return to KDE Plasma 5 sometime.

I don't know why for sure, my guess it is because it is the most popular,.....
I often wonder as well, why so many people choose Windows as their default OS,....
it certainly is not the best, and in my opinion it is the worst,...so why is it the most popular ?..... and that leads to the sad part,.........
Microsoft Joins Linux Foundation as Platinum Member
But for some, perhaps most people that will make them happy, and it
may be more of a case where MS is aware of the fact that linux is
becoming more popular, so they want to be more Linux-like,..??

I do not know how much , if any of all this is true,....but it does
appear to me like the mainstream Linux developers, are trying
very hard to become more popular, and like the same OS
so many claim to not like. Or in reverse. Every body, wants to be
the "most popular", if the developers think Gnome is what most users
want, that is what they would use as default.
It is reflected here as well, quite often we get users, complaining
because they could do this or that with some MS app, on Windows
but they can not figure out how to perform the same task, on Debian
or any other linux system......
A very few , like me started using Unix, and unix like systems, linux,etc,...
because I found I could do everything I could with Windows, and more,
I could also do all of the things that I could not do with the Desktop Environment
that is offered by and default for Microsoft,... for those that don't remember,
the first versions of Windows, were not even a real OS, they depended on
booting with Dos, and then running the mal-ware as a application.
I think with this, that is all for today,...
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2016-12-03 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby sjukfan » 2016-12-03 19:02

I personally think Xfce, MATE or Cinnamon should be the default DE, something that don't change too much from one version to another. It might be boring but I think it's a pretty good thing that even some one who has never used it before can figure it out pretty straight forward. And I don't think global menues and image only icons are that.

With a disclaimer that I don't really use any of those. But a follow up question to those who like Gnome 3, do you use the default settings, or are there something you always turn off or on? If you don't use the the default settings, maybe Debian shouldn't neither?
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-03 19:25

sjukfan wrote:question to those who like Gnome 3, do you use the default settings, or are there something you always turn off or on?

I prefer to disable NetworkManager completely and rely on ifupdown instead because I don't want my users fiddling with the connection settings :)

Otherwise, the only things I change are to remove the silly drop-down arrows and put the Applications menu back in the panel. And turn off the ****ing indexing, I hate that ****.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby phenest » 2016-12-03 19:55

GarryRicketson wrote:I think maybe we are looking at 2 different things, but also,..
we are really getting into another topic,....

We? I think it's you doing that Garry.

sjukfan wrote:I personally think Xfce, MATE or Cinnamon should be the default DE...

Why does the default need to be changed at all? Why the debate? I don't know about you guys, but I install Debian once and then just upgrade. How many times are you doing it for the need to worry about what's default? If you had to install it every day/week I'd understand, but it's only once in the lifetime of the computer/hard drive, right?

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:And turn off the ****ing indexing, I hate that ****.

Indexing? You mean the search box on the Overview?
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby ruffwoof » 2016-12-03 20:21

Why the debate? I don't know about you guys, but I install Debian once and then just upgrade. How many times are you doing it for the need to worry about what's default? If you had to install it every day/week I'd understand, but it's only once in the lifetime of the computer/hard drive, right?

I started using Debian as from Jessie. Apply updates etc. Will that automatically roll over into Stretch as and when that becomes the current Stable? Assuming of course you periodically run
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade

I tried every version of Debian, KDE, Gnome ...etc and finally settled on LXDE. With the panel at the top and my most common programs as shortcuts within that, that meets my everyday needs.

Image

I did like KDE, but it was too bloated for my needs. Gnome was nice, but I couldn't get on with the mouse through the bottom edge of screen to get the popup to see things that LXDE puts into the tray such as Skype etc. I guess that having migrated from Win XP (after it ceased support), LXDE was the more natural (comparable) choice.

I've made quite a few changes that if I had to re-do from afresh would take some time (not having noted down how I made those changes). Would be nice if migration over to Stretch was largely transparent and more or less kept the setup pretty much as-is. For instance I have it setup so that moving the mouse into the bottom left 'hot spot' corner/area brings up a scaled overview of all the current windows and clicking on one brings that Window into focus. Which required certain things be installed and configured that I no longer recall how I did it.
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Re: GNOME default for Stretch?

Postby sjukfan » 2016-12-03 20:32

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
sjukfan wrote:question to those who like Gnome 3, do you use the default settings, or are there something you always turn off or on?

I prefer to disable NetworkManager completely and rely on ifupdown instead because I don't want my users fiddling with the connection settings :)

Otherwise, the only things I change are to remove the silly drop-down arrows and put the Applications menu back in the panel. And turn off the ****ing indexing, I hate that ****.


:D

I'm not much of a DE guy at all, I run openbox and tint2 and I'm happy as a pig in mud. But from what I've heard it seems like a lot of people who run Gnome 3 says there's some extensions or whatsnot that you *have* to install, or articles like The 10 things you have to do after installing Gnome 3. But that might be old things that you don't have to do any longer.
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