More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby pylkko » 2016-12-23 12:54

This forum gets a fair amount of Raspbian related questions. The makers of Raspbian have now published an x86 version of their OS and it is being distributed on DVD's the label reading "Debian Pixel"..

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pixel-pc-mac/

So, expect even more of these questions?

Unfortunately they had to take out some software (like Wolfram stuff) because the license don't permit their distribution outside of the platform.

However, I think that they have done a fairly good job at tuning LXDE so that it includes audio mixer / bluetooth etc. Also it looks perhaps a bit better than stock LXDE.
User avatar
pylkko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: 2014-11-06 19:02

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby mor » 2016-12-23 16:35

Partially related rant, sorry about it.

I think that this "it's not Debian" strictness is going out of control lately because if it is absolutely true that Debian based or adjacent distros are not Debian, in many cases I think that the questions asked can be answered regardless of what OS the user is on.
I am not knowledgeable enough to contribute myself and for this reason I feel embarrassed to say this but it saddens me to see what in some cases seems like a rush, especially from people that I'm not even sure about how competent they really are, to berate those who ask such questions, and I'm not even talking about Kali wannabe-crackers.

I think that those who know stuff should try and be more lenient and see whether the question asked is really OS specific or if maybe it is generic enough that it would work if it was any distro, while those who are not even that knowledgeable should instead refrain from appearing altogether.

Sorry again for the rant, yes, we can expect more people to come asking for help with this new thing.
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 969
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-12-23 20:51

mor wrote:I think that this "it's not Debian" strictness is going out of control lately
I you're referring to the two recent threads I locked, I'm quite comfortable with those actions.

pylkko wrote:I think that those who know stuff should try and be more lenient and see whether the question asked is really OS specific or if maybe it is generic enough that it would work if it was any distro
Probably something like "In Debian you would <answer or suggestion>, but <distro> may be different and you should check <distro forum or documentation>".
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: 2009-10-05 07:54
Location: enzed

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2016-12-23 21:07

mor wrote:I think that this "it's not Debian" strictness is going out of control lately because if it is absolutely true that Debian based or adjacent distros are not Debian, in many cases I think that the questions asked can be answered regardless of what OS the user is on.

Whilst that may be true for some of the queries, the real difficulty lies in the low-level configuration differences that other distributions feature.

For example, BunsenLabs is pretty close to Mother Debian and is 100% binary compatible but there are significant, non-obvious differences:
Code: Select all
TheLab: ~ # dpkg-divert --list | grep bunsen
diversion of /etc/dpkg/origins/default to /etc/dpkg/origins/default.bunsen-orig by bunsen-os-release
diversion of /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/thunarx-2/thunar-wallpaper-plugin.so to /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/thunarx-2/thunar-wallpaper-plugin.so.bunsen-disabled by bunsen-thunar
diversion of /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf to /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.bunsen-orig by bunsen-configs
diversion of /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf to /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf.bunsen-orig by bunsen-configs
diversion of /etc/lsb-release to /etc/lsb-release.bunsen-orig by bunsen-os-release
diversion of /etc/os-release to /etc/os-release.bunsen-orig by bunsen-os-release

So any attempt to troubleshoot problems in such a system would be made much more difficult unless the person helping out has a detailed knowledge of the differences.

As dln notes, the correct approach is to refer the poster to their distribution's boards.
"Yes Linus [Torvalds], our patches are such garbage the KSPP can't manage to do anything other than copy+paste from them, and you're slowly merging them (along with our registered copyrights). How do our table scraps taste?" — Brad Spengler, grsecurity
User avatar
Head_on_a_Stick
 
Posts: 6541
Joined: 2014-06-01 17:46
Location: /dev/chair

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby dasein » 2016-12-23 23:42

dilberts_left_nut wrote:...referring to the two recent threads I locked, I'm quite comfortable with those actions.

*thunderous applause*

As well you should be, dln.

For those who missed the movie the first 500 showings, here's how it goes:

1) OP asks a question about Kali
2) FDN user points OP to Kali forums
3) OP explains that Kali is merely Debian misspelled
4) OP gets the dressing-down s/he so richly deserves
5) OP leaves in a huff (without an answer, since no one here runs Kali)

Yeah, we need lots more threads like that. They are just that informative.
User avatar
dasein
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: 2011-03-04 01:06
Location: Terra Incantationum

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby cpoakes » 2016-12-24 00:13

While a question about Kali/Bunsen/Raspian/LMDE/GRML/Devuan/MX/SolydXK or another derivative might seem generic, more often they are not because of reconfiguration, alternative kernels and alternative packaging. A (non-judgmental) referral to those with appropriate experience and expertise is entirely warranted.

Furthermore, a history of some users flaming the forum because they feel entitled to our help anyway justifies the policy to lock out such threads. A Toyota mechanic might adapt their skills to fix a Lexus, but a car owner cursing and berating them because they won't should not be surprised when security escorts them off the premises and management implements a Toyota-only policy.
User avatar
cpoakes
 
Posts: 94
Joined: 2015-03-29 04:54

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby bw123 » 2016-12-24 00:32

I'm not in the loop, but suggest this thread go to "off topic" or "forum feedback/suggestions"

I think I tend to agree with this comment.

I feel embarrassed to say this but it saddens me to see what in some cases seems like a rush, especially from people that I'm not even sure about how competent they really are, to berate those who ask such questions, and I'm not even talking about Kali


People post here because they need help, they don't even know if they are using debian, or a derivative. Let's be KIND to them.

Why can't you have a "first post" notification or some kind of notice to a user when posting that, "If your /etc/apt/sources.list contains anything other that debian sources then your post may likely be off topic."

?
User avatar
bw123
 
Posts: 2378
Joined: 2011-05-09 06:02
Location: TN_USA

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby sunrat » 2016-12-24 01:00

pylkko wrote:This forum gets a fair amount of Raspbian related questions. The makers of Raspbian have now published an x86 version of their OS and it is being distributed on DVD's the label reading "Debian Pixel"..

That is rather confusing. Wonder if I can install it on my new Google phone? :D
“ computer users can be divided into 2 categories:
Those who have lost data
...and those who have not lost data YET ”
Remember to BACKUP!
User avatar
sunrat
 
Posts: 2001
Joined: 2006-08-29 09:12
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-24 01:13

General Discussion
Here you can discuss every aspect of Debian. Note: not for support requests!

I don't see any where that is says Linux in general, and do not uderstand the confusion
Kali is not Debian, Rasbian is not Debian , Ubuntu and Linux Mint , are not Debian,
they are all "other linux" distros.
And there is the "Off topic" section,....
Offtopic
If it doesn't relate to Debian, but you still want to share it, please do it here

For more details : http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17592

I think it is a good thing to start "locking" the offtopic , non debian threads, and
move them to "off topic" where they belong,
Some people claim, or whine, it is because nobody answers on the "kali" forum,...
I was recently looking at the documentation, and guidelines there.
It is not that nobody answers, in fact the moderators remove the posts,
they are very professinal, and when these " Mr.Robot " kiddies , or "roomper room" rejects, come in, with out doing any reasearch, nor reading any of the documentation, etc,... the first posts of new members are moderated, and if they do not meet the guidelines, they are simply removed. Not moved to a "off topic" board, not answered,
simply removed.
As far as this
More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

I don't see any reason to let it become more "confusion" the
wiki.debian.org does have a little about "raspbian", but it says very clearly
from:Raspbian is a Debian derivative targetting armv6 devices with vfpv2. Primerally but not exclusively the raspberry pi. We are based on debian armhf but with reduced compiler defaults to that our binaries will run on such devices.

That seems clear enough to me, nothing confusing about it, they are a "Debian derivative", no where do they claim to be Debian,...
they do not seem to have their own forum, but they do have a wiki,...


https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pixel-pc-mac/

So, expect even more of these questions?

Well if the blog supports questions and someone answers them, that would be
fine, most blogs do not, but it looks like the one being promoted here does,
and it also has a forum, so it would be a perfect place to ask questions
about this " Raspbien " and pixel-pc mac , or what ever,....
In any event, it has nothing, or very little to do with Debian, but at least
now we know where to send people that come here asking about it.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/
:mrgreen:
=============== edited because 2 posts while writing =============


Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby bw123 » 2016-12-23 18:32
I'm not in the loop, but suggest this thread go to "off topic" or "forum feedback/suggestions"

I agree, "off topic" is where it belongs.

Just because they call it ""Debian Pixel"" does not make it Debian, but yes, that
does make it a little bit confuseing
Postby bw123 » People post here because they need help, they don't even know if they are using debian, or a derivative. Let's be KIND to them.
Why can't you have a "first post" notification or some kind of notice to a user when posting that, "If your /etc/apt/sources.list contains anything other that debian sources then your post may likely be off topic."

I agree 100%, that we should be kind to them, in many cases the OP's have no clue about what they are doing or using, and often apparently can not read, and know nothing about doing searches first, or anything.
We do have a "Forum guidelines. Please read before first post! " but nobody reads it.
It would be a lot of extra work for the "Mods" to have to check every single new members post, and if it is not appropriate, politely tell them , and perhaps refer
them to another forum,....
How ever that is something any forum member can do, and should, politely ask
the new member , What OS are you using ? or to post the sources.list,.... and
quite often that is what we do,..Well some forum members are more polite
then others, but,....any way,
I suppose we could put a notice, and sticky it, at the top of the forums,
but based on what I see posted, nobody reads them.
Last edited by GarryRicketson on 2016-12-24 04:44, edited 1 time in total.
"What we expect you have already Done"

Before doing anything, read the Debian documentation:
Debian Documentation
How to ask the smart way
Debian Foro Español
======================
For the Birds
User avatar
GarryRicketson
 
Posts: 4219
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby mor » 2016-12-24 02:29

dilberts_left_nut wrote:I you're referring to the two recent threads I locked, I'm quite comfortable with those actions.

I'm sorry I didn't have your actions in mind nor I was thinking about any specific thread.
I meant "lately" in a much broader sense, my bad. :oops:

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:Whilst that may be true for some of the queries, the real difficulty lies in the low-level configuration differences that other distributions feature.



So any attempt to troubleshoot problems in such a system would be made much more difficult unless the person helping out has a detailed knowledge of the differences.

Of course, this is true and I agree, I said it in my initial post.
But I have the feeling, and I know how this "having a feeling" has been notoriously abused in recent times, that in more than just a few cases there could be room for an answer that is not just "X is not Debian, go to X's forum!".
And also it is this thing of jumping the gun to go tell a user (and then pile on) that he is in the wrong place that I perceive as… sad.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:As dln notes, the correct approach is to refer the poster to their distribution's boards.

It is true, however if you come to think of it an argument could be made for redirecting users with questions about Firefox, Libre Office, Gimp or any application for that matter (not to mention "Programming" which has nothing to do with Debian specifically), to the respective forum/community, for very few questions asked here pertain to the particular low-level differences proper of Debian's version of most applications.

Bottom line is that there could be some more good sense and a more relaxed approach, by evaluating the questions instead of blindly redirecting them, and when it really belongs elsewhere, not climaxing in telling people to leave (especially when the one doing the dirty deed is one, like me, who doesn't have the technical chops to tell anyone off).

But I apologize again for having disrupted this thread, my filter is usually more efficient in blocking rants. If a mod is in the mood maybe the OT stuff caused by my intrusion could be split or… I don't know, sorry again.

Bye
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 969
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby dilberts_left_nut » 2016-12-24 04:27

There's nothng wrong with a rambling thread in General Discussion :)

I agree it should be handled 'case by case' - confused newbies are pretty easy to spot - entitled prat's also.

The former can benefit from some generallised advice and pointer to the correct place for further help, the latter should know better already (i.e. someone asking specific questions about kali kernels ... :/ ).
AdrianTM wrote:There's no hacker in my grandma...
User avatar
dilberts_left_nut
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: 2009-10-05 07:54
Location: enzed

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby GarryRicketson » 2016-12-24 04:52

by mor » It is true, however if you come to think of it an argument could be made for redirecting users with questions about Firefox, Libre Office, Gimp or any application for that matter-----snip----

Actually on some occasions, that is best, and quite often what we do, or some
of us do, I will use MYSQL, and VirtualBox, as examples, often we get questions
more related to those applications then actaully Debian, all though the OP's are using
Debian, and I often refer them to either the VirtualBox documentation, or the Mysql
documentation,....or sites. It is not that they should not ask here, but it is because
I genuinely feel they would stand a better chance of getting a good answer, sometimes
it is because that is where I find "possible" solutions,when I do a search,....

by mor »
Bottom line is that there could be some more good sense -----

+100 on that, there is all ways lot's of benifits in using more "good sense",.....
Like,
Thinking about what the problem is,.... doing a search,...then also
decideing where the best place would be to ask the qusetion , if a solution
is not found after doing the searches.
For example: When I needed to migrate my website, moving the files was
not much problem, but I did not know how to copy and move the mysql data
base,...I did ask here, but actually found my solutions after doing some searches,
and the results pointed me toward the Mysql site and documentation, and that
is where I found the solution,...I never even needed to post a question there.
Same thing with VirtualBox,...
Good sense, would tell somebody , Me thinking """I am using Kali",...me searching,...
key words "problems with kali" ,....hmmm , me thinking again,...."3 out of the first 4 hits all point toward the Kali dot org site,..",....common good sense comes into play,...
I know I am kind of short on that, but fortunately I have a little, so good sense tells me
" 3 out of 4 point toward this "kali" site,...so I follow those links,...... that is good sense,
Of course , if I had a little more "good sense", I would try to be more specific and instead of "problems with VirtualBox",
use.
"Problems with sharing folders on VirtualBox"
Good sense would tell anyone, if they are having problem with, FireFox, the best
place to look for solutions would be at , hmm I don't know,...let me do a search
problems with FireFox
And then of course it also is good sense to read the question carefully,
before re-dericting them, that should not be done "blindly",.....
by mor »evaluating the questions instead of blindly redirecting them,

and then ;
Postby dilberts_left_nut »I agree it should be handled 'case by case' - confused newbies are pretty easy to spot - entitled prat's also.

Everything depends on the situation,.... that is all part of using "good sense"
or "common sense",..... I wish I had more of that, ...oh well, just keep trying, I guess.
User avatar
GarryRicketson
 
Posts: 4219
Joined: 2015-01-20 22:16
Location: Durango, Mexico

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby mor » 2016-12-24 11:44

dilberts_left_nut wrote:I agree it should be handled 'case by case' - confused newbies are pretty easy to spot - entitled prat's also.

My point however is not about discerning entitled users from newbies, both exist and ask questions about everything regardless of the distro they use.
If the user asking is a douche I suppose the tone of the answer will be in tune, but I think it shouldn't determine whether a question belongs here or not. ;)
User avatar
mor
 
Posts: 969
Joined: 2010-08-28 15:16
Location: mor@debian

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby kedaha » 2016-12-24 11:49

I have raspberry pi I and II and installed Debian on the rpii as detailed at wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi and debian-jessie-on-rpi2 which I acquired to test server software.
While Raspbian is described here as "a free operating system based on Debian optimized for the Raspberry Pi hardware" it comes with a necessary privative, binary blob needed to boot it which —as the wiki writer puts it— is "out of any reasonable standard" thereby, "generally, making it your best bet to use Raspbian." However, it'd be nice to see a few more posts here from users who, like me, prefer Debian to Raspbian.
Mate DE & OSSv4.
LaMp, WordPress; ispmail
Debian Stable & Software

Words, as is well known, are the great foes of reality. Joseph Conrad.
User avatar
kedaha
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: 2008-05-24 12:26

Re: More Raspbian/Debian confusion to come

Postby arochester » 2016-12-24 12:24

If someone is using XYZ Linux and XYZ Linux has a forum, then they should use the XYZ Forum.

I have seen a Kali argument that there is hardly ever anyone on the Kali Forum to answer questions. (A) Kali people are asking questions all over the Linux community. Perhaps if they congregated on the Kali Forum there might be people there. (B) I have often seen "I am new to Linux and I am using Kali" or similar. Kali is a specialist distro for experts. If someone is using Kali and they can't sort out all their own problems themselves then Kali is not for them. I suspect that MANY Kali users are newbies, which is why people on Kali Forums cannot answer difficult questions.

Distrowatch currently lists 128 distros "based on Debian", some of which I have never even heard of. Many have some kind of forum or support mechanism e.g. https://minino.galpon.org/en/forum

One difficulty with saying that we may be able to help with some non-distro-specific problems is that people come to this forum not knowing whether they have non-distro-specific or distro-specific question.

There are many places for people to ask general Linux questions. There is e.g. https://unix.stackexchange.com BUT (BIG BUT) people seem to make no effort to take named distro quesions to the correct place - so we see stuff about Ubuntu etc there. And questions like https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... kali-linux
"Something to be aware of: Debian is a core or source distribution. This means there are many Debian-based distributions. THEY ARE NOT DEBIAN."
arochester
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: 2010-12-07 19:55


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

fashionable