Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby kedaha » 2017-03-14 21:53

annadane wrote:
kedaha wrote:Do I avoid non-free software? Absolutely!...

How do you feel about contrib?

Same as non-free. As advised by debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_debian_is_100_free_software:
Users should be aware of the risks of using packages in the non-free and contrib areas:

•lack of freedom for such software packages

•lack of support from Debian on such software packages (Debian can't support software properly without having access to its source code.)

•contamination of your 100% free Debian system
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-03-15 02:50

Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Yes, some people do avoid contrib or non free software , and they all have their reasons, and I suppose to each one, what ever reason they have is valid, at least in their mind.

Others do use contrib or non free software, and the same, they all have their reasons.

If a package or type of program, "software", is not in the Debian repositories and it is needed for the kind of work a person does, well it is logical to do what is necessary to do ones work, and it is normal for people to take the easiest route. Others prefer, and enjoy the "scenic" route.
Then there is also the rewards one experiences being creative, and perhaps actually creating the script, or "program" they need.

So any way, to answer the question in the topic title,..yes some people here do avoid using contrib or non free software.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby aplistir » 2017-03-15 07:45

I don't avoid them.

I avoid programs that cost money or are pirated.

Of-course, if there is an important program, that I need, then I am ready to pay for it.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby debiman » 2017-03-15 07:46

mor wrote:...or because it's me involved.

are you really that narcissistic?
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby mor » 2017-03-15 15:53

debiman wrote:
mor wrote:...or because it's me involved.

are you really that narcissistic?

Oh come on debiman, give a man at least the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, yes, one could have definitely read it that way and, had I phrased it differently, like speaking of my history of longwinded and argumentative discussions here instead of assuming one would figure it out, would have helped you not getting to that conclusion, however, as you said, how monumentally narcissistic would one need to be to mean it that way?
My point is: would me being the most narcissistic person be the likeliest of scenarios in the absence of any other indication pointing that way? Or did I give any reason to lean that way, have I ever said or done anything here or elsewhere to support the preconceived bias of me being so self centered rather than, ehm, any other possibility? ;)

In truth, I'm just self conscious about my proneness to let the flow of words go wild, and I figured you might have witnessed some of my forays here.
Yes, it is kinda narcissistic too to think anyone even registered me as a presence here, especially considering how poor my contribution to actual problem solving has been, however no, come on, just because my shit doesn't stink it doesn't mean that I think the world revolves around me. :P

@pendachandran
First of all let me apologies for the general tone of my previous reply, in hindsight I recognize I was unnecessarily hostile and if anything I should have just tried to go over the point where I wasn't clear instead of focusing on the problem of fallacies.

A dear friend was so kind to give me a different perspective on the matter, and for that I was able to understand your point better and most importantly get a deeper understanding about the way I communicate with people. Without going into details, especially because I still have work to do on it, I tend to overemphasize certain concepts in a way that distracts and deviates the attention from the real issue.
The point is in fact that with my rhetoric expedient I made you focus on the notion that there is a moral equivalency between buying blood diamonds or exploiting cheap labor and the use of proprietary software, when I was thinking about another aspect in making that analogy (more on it in a second).

So, sorry for having been too hasty in judging your response as technically incorrect, which it wasn't.
I do however still stand by my original criticism of your statement, which I hope I will clear up now.

When I made the blood diamond/fair trade example, I was trying to point out that regardless of their respective moral weights, in order to dismiss either of those as forms of zealotry, which I'm sure some people would even in the case of blood diamond/fair trade (think about anything in electronics and yes, there are blood components in all of them), one would need something more objective than his own personal sense of how one matter is "worth the trouble" and the other isn't.
Making the analogy with something on a obvious higher moral ground than the use of proprietary software (even though it would be interesting to at least explore the thought in a new discussion) was exactly the reason I chose it.
Had I used the example of -say- only wearing pointy hats wouldn't have been convincing enough, I believe, even though the point of not calling it zealotry would still be the same.
Unfortunately, it was so glaring with me that I wasn't meaning it as a moral equivalency, that I couldn't think one would misunderstand, and with it think I was making a case against proprietary software and those who use it, instead than just the improper use of the word zealotry.

The reason why I criticized your statement in the first place in fact, is simply because when you said that you don't avoid non-free for a sense of zealotry because you do real work with your computer, I inferred (and I think it was a pretty fair inference) that you meant that trying to respect software freedom is a vain endeavor at best, an excess and a form of zealotry indeed, one that only those who have no real stuff on their plate can afford to be devoting time to.
If this was a mistaken inference at first, I think you've made it abundantly clear in you subsequent message that it is indeed what you think, which is fine by me for you to say, however I had to respond to.

Because to call that kind of commitment zealotry is definitely unwarranted, just as it would be and it is in fact, to call it zealotry when it is a matter of diamonds or other materials that fund wars and genocide or exploit third world and child labor, or even just when it is a matter of committing to some silly idea unworthy of being compared to these serious issues, granted of course that it doesn't transcend into forcing others in committing to it too, which would be fanaticism, zealotry indeed.

I hope I've made myself clear, if not, well, I don't know.

Bye and take care.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby debiman » 2017-03-15 17:22

mor wrote:give a man at least the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, yes, one could have definitely read it that way and, had I phrased it differently, like speaking of my history of longwinded and argumentative discussions here instead of assuming one would figure it out, would have helped you not getting to that conclusion, however, as you said, how monumentally narcissistic would one need to be to mean it that way?
My point is: would me being the most narcissistic person be the likeliest of scenarios in the absence of any other indication pointing that way? Or did I give any reason to lean that way, have I ever said or done anything here or elsewhere to support the preconceived bias of me being so self centered rather than, ehm, any other possibility? ;)

In truth, I'm just self conscious about my proneness to let the flow of words go wild, and I figured you might have witnessed some of my forays here.
Yes, it is kinda narcissistic too to think anyone even registered me as a presence here, especially considering how poor my contribution to actual problem solving has been, however no, come on, just because my shit doesn't stink it doesn't mean that I think the world revolves around me.

good answer!
do you mind if i figure you like this from now on? can't get that image out of my mind... :mrgreen:
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby millpond » 2017-03-16 07:16

Its difficult for me to give a simple answer to the OP question.

While I do regard RMS to be a Cyber-Jesus - I would be the first to admit that I am somewhat a sinner.

I tend to look at things from an engineering perspective, though.

From there I learned a few cardinal rules:
A. The right tool for the right job.
B. If it works, dont fix it.
C. Second source everything, if possible.
D. its not what you know, but knowing where to go fo find out what you dont.

Plus, i do not regard all FOSS as benign, nor do i regard all proprietary as evil. The issue is one of context.

For example, the lil lady needs Photoshop for her graphics class. This naturally requires Win7 (which I very much dislike) as well as an Adobe product on my system. Fortunately i do have Adobe blocked every which way to sunday - but the issue here is that necessary work cannot be done without it, and the FOSS system simply cannot compete with Win on graphics. Gimp blows chunks next to PShop, and other major Win graphics programs. Ergo PS is the right tool for the graphics job.

There are 'proprietary Win programs that are truly freeware. Irfanview comes to mind. In fact I use it in Linux as my normal image viewer.
However, as a general guidleine, particularly on the Win platform, one must be *very* wary of 'freeware' - and avoid those that do not have a stolid reputation. The reason, of course is often the software, such as Foxit, or ImgBurn starts off free, but it is only a bait and switch tactic to ensnare users in later versions, particularly with spyware and adware. Without source, TAANSTAAFL is a general rule (albeit with a few exceptions).

I do not see the use of proprietary software in and of itself as a moral hazard. I see it as a limitation on freedom, and also, of course as a potential vector for malware. RMS states the Golden Rule, but we must be practical. The one positive aspect of proprietary software is that it can drive the development of community efforts at replacement. One example of that is ReactOS, which is developing a replacement microkernel for Win itself.

From that aspect I have never had a issue with proprietary *drivers* at least in the past before the new techniques of malware embedded in hardware such as disk drives has come into vogue. The worst of course is the Ring-0 horrors embedded into modern processor code, and motherboard BIOS. Perhaps we *should* start paying more attention to FOSS hardware, to avoid where the real threats lie, as far as system security.

Of course there is the subtle evil of FOSS malware, of which I regard systemd to be only a symptom. But even Devuuan uses systemd where its the right tool for the right job, until at least a replacement can be found.
That said, in my Win7 boot on this machine where Photoshop lives, I also have Ubuntu in a VM, where i do not worry about freedom, as it is only a convenience, and limited in what it can do. Sometimes rebooting to Linux is inconvenient, and I want something simple to maybe test a script or do some basics I cant do in Win. I do not care about Canonical mechanations there.

But one of the main strengths of FOSS is its communalistic nature. Where it shines is its community forums such as this one, where users and the creative community can interact. A good example of that is VLC media player, one of the best and most feature laden, bar none. I use it across platforms. Alot of user input went into making it.

Although this is ultimately a religious issue, one should bear in mind that the bible was never finalized, and culminated in the Talmud, whose primary message was: Whenever possible be ethical, but when not- be practical.

This leads us right into blood diamonds, and here the main issue is whether the dehumanizing working conditions under revolutionary militias are qualitatively worse than those by korporate regimes? Is tantalum mining really worse than Foxconn? I am trying to avoid the fallacy of moral equivalence here, but the simple truth is that in a globalist economy the rot is systemic, and even to be *able* to escape it requires great wealth, which creates a Catch-22 situation since acquiring that wealth requires participation in the system itself.

For a good perspective on moral equivalence and hazards, study the Amish.
They have no qualms with electricity. It is the electric companies they despise.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby Deb-fan » 2017-03-31 13:25

Nope, don't avoid them at all and glad even Debian has finally made it easy(make that even easier) to enable them now. Hopefully more people will start coming direct to the source as a result. Rather than one of the 100's of Debian "based" distro's.

Edit: Would like to see some of the fragmentation end and credit given, where credit is due = Debian. Which is not to say imo/experience there aren't some kickarse Debian respins out there, ie: Bunsenlabs Linux (community continuation of #! Linux) and Linux BBQ (Debian Sid done by an uber kickbutt nixer = Machinebacon) jump to mind and I highly recommend.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby /tmp » 2017-04-10 19:09

My only weakness is Adobe Flash; I need it for certain broadcast websites and I like listening to my music playlists on Amazon Prime.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby KBD47 » 2017-04-10 22:58

I like that Debian makes it easy for me to use my computer without limitations. I also think it is great others can avoid whatever software, firmware, etc., that they wish.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby Onsemeliot » 2017-06-28 22:47

I use Debian because it cares for reliability and it makes it easy for me to stick with free software only. (I have been using my notebook for years without WLAN just because I didn't want to install proprietary drivers.)

I do work as a graphic designer and so far I didn't encounter anything I couldn't do with free software. Obviously, things sometimes need different approaches and more than one tool but free software is much more satisfying to me because with it I can ensure to not support policies I would rather get rid of. I am glad to have become a person who many people claim to be non-existent.

Using proprietary software does actual harm to others (ignoring my personal annoyances with it). There are many reasons but the most important ones are in my view:
1) With my money I would support actions I oppose. (Deliberately limiting people, spying, creating dependencies, abusing user data, etc.)
2) It would be rather burdensome (if not impossible in some cases) to create files in open formats. This way I would take part in forcing others to use restrictive tools.

I do avoid non-free software and I am fully satisfied with it. My only regret is that free operating systems only are only rarely pre-installed. This seems to be the main reason why "taking over the world" is so slow. I am convinced it will happen anyway because freely building on an already established base is undoubtedly more efficient than playing stupid hiding games (proprietary trade secrets). The biggest corporations are moving away from selling software already. Nowadays they most of the time use proprietary software only as a means to hide what data they do collect for their actual business since it has become rather pointless to sell something you can have for free without imposed limitations, data grabbing and spying. Therefore, its paramount to them to make the switch to free software as painful as possible.

Unfortunately creating free hardware needs world-wide coordination and funding if we want to get up-to-date results. But we will get there also.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby Bulkley » 2017-06-28 23:10

Well, yes and no. I have a couple of necessary hardware blobs. I was quite surprised when I looked that I have very few contrib packages. There are not enough to keep contrib and non-free sources open so I blocked them.

Debian is a Linux OS. That said, if one can get a source package of just about anything it can be made to run in Debian. The kicker is that one has to know how.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby HuangLao » 2017-06-29 02:02

I have a laptop that runs only free repos, and I have a desktop that needs the "firmware-linux-nonfree" package so I use that, I also like virtualbox so that is nonfree (at least the installer), other than that its all free.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby Lysander » 2017-06-29 10:37

There are two things I use which I consider essential to my install: firmware-linux-nonfree for my ATI card, and MS fonts.

I also choose to use Opera, Steam and Flash. That's about it. I had Skype but I removed it because I never use it for anything these days.
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Re: Does anyone here avoid contrib or non free software?

Postby deborah-and-ian » 2017-06-29 10:47

pendrachken wrote:Using proprietary software hurts no-one

Maybe no one in your privileged back of the woods, but certainly people who strive for a culture of all free software, media and information. It also hurts the people not privileged enough to afford the proprietary software.

EDIT: Back on topic: I sadly haven't paid attention to the hardware I purchased and therefore need several firmware packages. :(

Code: Select all
amd64-microcode                     Processor microcode firmware for AMD CPUs
bluez-firmware                      Firmware for Bluetooth devices
firmware-amd-graphics               Binary firmware for AMD/ATI graphics chips
intel-microcode                     Processor microcode firmware for Intel CPUs
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integrated AMD Mullins
dedicated AMD Hainan Radeon R5 M240 2 GB
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