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Need to purchase a laptop, again! (Resolved)

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muskrat
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Need to purchase a laptop, again! (Resolved)

#1 Post by muskrat »

My laptop died for sure this time. I stripped it and trashed it. Now I am in the marketplace looking at laptops. I was hoping to buy a linux preconfigured laptop when this day came, but wouldn't you know it happens when I have to many expenses.

So I am looking to buy one off a auction or closeout sale, thier about half to cost of all the linux preinstall units I've seen. But I'm wondering which brand and/or model is the least problem matic to install Linux.

I noticed this post on a unrelated issue but touched on this topic.
Also Thinkpad laptops rely more on hardware/BIOS which has some downsides but also one major upside: it works with any OS without any special drivers or software.
What's the downsides?

Is the Thinkpad really user friendly for linux installs? I'm not much of a fan of the glide point mouse that seems to be on most IBM units.

I really didn't have much trouble with my HP pavilion and linux, infact DSL was the only OS that ever drove the sound card stright out of the box. Windows didn't even do that with the refirbished recovery disk I had.

The reason I'm posting is just because the choices out there are just over welming to research ever single make and model. So I was just wanting a little Debian users input, because that's the OS I entend to use the most.

There is one item I'll be needing that I never got working on my old unit. And that would be the WiFi.
Last edited by muskrat on 2007-04-17 00:47, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Post by mority »

In my opinion, Thinkpads are just the best notebooks around. They are solid and robust. No multimedia bullshit.

The trackpoint is way better then the stupid touchpads. That is highly subjective, of course, but if you are typing with ten fingers, then you will learn to love the trackpoint.

I never had problems with Linux hardware support on my T30. Sound and wifi is working out of the box on Debian. Well, at least with WEP. Never managed to get WPA working on Linux, but that's another story.

If you buy a Thinkpad, be careful to buy one from the T or X series. The R series is for the low end market and the notebooks suck. T41 and T42 have a pretty good value for money right now. A friend of mine bought a very nice new T41 for around 800 Euro. T60 is a high end notebook with high resolution displays. You can replace your desktop with it. X60 is totally focused on mobility (small, light and long power), but only has a 1024x768 display.

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#3 Post by AgenT »

I think that quote was of my long post in this thread. Read that whole thread for a lot more information (I also posted multiple times).

The downsides to the BIOS controlled by hardware is that the software cannot change the behavior of it. For example, if the fan turns on, you cannot turn it off. However, the downsides are small and are totally overshadowed by the upsides in my opinion. And in fact clever hardware hackers have made progress where you can indeed control even the fan to a certain extent via /proc/ on most Thinkpads. You cannot do this on any other platform (including Windows).

T and X series are the best Thinkpads. As a posted above mentioned, T41-43 are good buys, as well as X31-32 because now T60 and X60 are about one month away from being "old" as T61 and X61 are coming out in a month or two. Be careful when buying used, though and do your research (see links in my posts).

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#4 Post by mority »

AgenT, do you know whether the X61 will have higher resolution displays?

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Thanks

#5 Post by muskrat »

Ok now I understand the downside, and it really don't bother me, I would suppose one could set some of those settings in the Bios if he so choice to.

By used I was talking about the off lease units. I've seen some on ebay off lease with blank HD for a very reasonable price.

I'm looking at having around $500 to spend, give or take a little. My requirments aren't that great.

I'd need;

bluetooth intergrated or buy a usb dongle
wireless intergrated or with PCIMCA card

DVD CD/RW intergrated I really don't want an external.

At least 40 GB HD
At least 500 MB ram
At least 1.0 prosessor speed.

By most standards that a low end machine or an old machine but it would serve my purpose well. I did notice that a good number of those IBM units have dual mouse now, both the glidepoint and the touchpad.
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#6 Post by AgenT »

mority wrote:AgenT, do you know whether the X61 will have higher resolution displays?
I did research on this and here is what I found. Please note that this is from memory and may be a little off.

Lenovo is trying to phase out the 1024x768 resolution from all of its non-ultraportable laptops. In fact, they are trying to do away with the normal screen dimensions and produce widescreen laptops. As you may already be aware of, there are now three lines of the X products. X60, X60s and X60t. The first two, X60 and X60s, differ only in CPU type, where the s stands for "slim" and uses a specially made CPU by Intel that uses less electricity and should give better battery life and less heat. However, I have read that some people are having heat problems with their X60s laptops. The X60t is the tablet version of the X60. This laptop has a higher resolution than the X60. The new X61 and X61s should have the normal 1024x768 resolution and there is no indication that there will be an option for something higher. This is unfortunate because the tablet version does show that the X60 can indeed have a different screen resolution. Yet this option is only available on the X60t. Maybe this will change for the X61 line, but that is doubtful and there was mention by one Lenovo person that it will not change.

The T60 line is going to see the biggest change. Starting from the T61 laptop (and all of it's variants), the option for a standard screen with 1024x768 resolution will not longer be available. And if I remember correctly, only one option will have the standard screen size, with the rest of the options all being different resolutions based on the widescreen.

The Z series of laptops are being discontinued. This makes sense because the Z series was the widescreen edition.

As to my personal preference: the X series laptop screen is already small enough and a larger resolution would just make everything that much harder to see. I also like the standard screen, because it gives more height-room than the equivalent widescreen. Hight room is more important than width for text editing, whether that be email, documents or coding. Especially coding as lines of code are usually not very wide across even 1024x768 screens. Then again, vertical split screen is more doable on widescreen.

All of this information comes from Lenovo, but not in any official form. And it does come from multiple people at Lenovo. Supposedly there should be an official announcement about these plans sometime in the next month or so.

Of course, things may change between now and the official announcement.

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Re: Thanks

#7 Post by AgenT »

muskrat wrote:I'm looking at having around $500 to spend, give or take a little. My requirments aren't that great.

I'd need;

bluetooth intergrated or buy a usb dongle
wireless intergrated or with PCIMCA card

DVD CD/RW intergrated I really don't want an external.

At least 40 GB HD
At least 500 MB ram
At least 1.0 prosessor speed.
The X series is out of the question, because you can only use an external optical drive or an optical drive connected to a bay.

In your position, I would get the following laptop:
T41 or T42
T41 will usually give you a lower price, and the T41 and T42 are almost identical.
CPU: 1.3-1.5GHz
HD: 40GB
Bluetooth
Note that some T41 laptops come with 30GB standard.
RAM: 512MB
I would also look into getting a T42 because it will be newer and you can still catch an original Lenovo warranty since 3 years was standard on those models.
Price: USD $430-$470 including shipping. $450-500 including shipping for T42 with Bluetooth and warranty. This is if you are buying in the USA and off eBay.

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#8 Post by simstick »

I just installed Debian Etch w/KDE testing on a Dell Inspirion 5150 with an Nvidia GoForce 5200 (64meg) 1g ram 2.6 Pent M4 with a PCMIA SMC Orinco Gold wireless card and its working great. Everything including power management and fan control works. As it is two or three years old it or something similiar should be available for near your price.

I would say that if you are going to be truly mobile and not using it to game with, an older Thinkpad is tougher but I wouldnt want to place any bets on how easy it would be to get Debian going on it.

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#9 Post by michael7 »

I have just purchased a used T60 Thinkpad on ebay. (Hopefully, the damn thing will be here this afternoon.) I would encourage you to read AgenT's post and take a look at the "thinkwiki" webpage. Apparently, with a little configuration, Debian Etch works just fine on a Thinkpad.
Live simply so that others may simply live.
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Re: Thanks

#10 Post by mority »

AgenT wrote: Price: USD $430-$470 including shipping. $450-500 including shipping for T42 with Bluetooth and warranty. This is if you are buying in the USA and off eBay.
Wow, I'm getting envious. You still pay 800 Euro (~$1060) for a new T41 in germany :(

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#11 Post by muskrat »

Wow, I'm getting envious. You still pay 800 Euro (~$1060) for a new T41 in germany
Well don't be too envious, as a rule americans can be a very wastefull people. Since causing the resale value of all our durable goods to drop substantually in the frist years of uses, because everybody must have new or newer than thier compadres.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll surly use it.
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Well I bought one.

#12 Post by muskrat »

Thanks for you alls advice. I just purchased a IBM Lenovo Thinkpad T41.

I won't get it for a week or ten days, But shipping and all it come to $532.50.

It came with just about all I wanted except the DVD burner, and bluetooth.
I can live without a DVD burner, But I'll just get a Bluetooth dongle, and I can use it on my Desktop PCs also.

Pentium M Centrino 1.6 Ghz
512 mb ram
40 GB HD
DVD/CD-RW Combo Drive
WiFi internal
Ethernet internal

The only think I'm not sure of is if it's got the dual mouse, touchpad/glidepoint, the paper work say Intergated track point mouse. but the pictures show both, and some of the other T models listed on ebay listed both in the documentation, so this one should have it that way.

If not, I guess I'll just have to get used to it.

I'll continue this thread with a report on how well Debian installs stright out of the box.
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#13 Post by AgenT »

muskrat:

Congratulations on your new Thinkpad.

This is all from memory so it may be wrong:

There is no T41 or T42 with a DVD burner by default. You can, however, buy it as an addon.

1.6GHz CPU is also the fastest CPU available for a T41. Your price is about right for this CPU speed.

A T41 with bluetooth is not common.

All T model laptops come with both a trackpoint and a touchpad. The X model comes only with a trackpoint. Once you get used to it, the trackpoint is superior to any touchpad. You just have to give it some time and don't forget that it can physically be customized which does make a large difference in how it feels and reacts.

Whether or not your laptop will work "out of the box" depends mostly on two things: your WiFi card and how Debian handles your suspend and hibernate functions. Your chances on the WiFi card are 33% that it will work. There are 3 chipsets used: 2 of which will not work out of the box, one that will. The reason is simple: one of those is 100% GPL, the other ones are missing pieces (madwifi is in non-free and ipw requires firmware). Modem will not work "out of the box" but you can use slmodem package to get it working. Suspend and hibernate are strange in that the suspend and hibernate keys work on some systems and on others do not. I have not looked into the cause of this. Whatever the case, it will work fairly well once configured.

mority:
You should not compare prices of even the same hardware bought in difference countries. Prices differ for a lot of reasons, one of which is service, support and warranty. Even though IBM/Lenovo are known to have one of the best service, support and warranty in the USA, they do not compare to even your average run-of-the-mill computer seller in Germany. And I would venture to guess IBM/Lenovo has high standards in Germany compare to other German companies. Because of this, you are paying more to receive such good service, support and warranty. In fact, the USA style "limited warranty" that you receive with all electronic equipment is not just horrible by German standards, it is illegal in Germany and the rest of Europe. Such warrantees are superseeded by German and EU law to give the consumer better protection. Granted, the USA "limited warranty" differers from company to company, with IBM/Lenovo having one of best.

Another reason for price difference: in just about every part of the word, including Europe, prices include all taxes. In the USA this is not true. Prices never include taxes. Although granted, this is not valid if buying over the Internet and the company does not have a physical presence in your state.

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#14 Post by muskrat »

I don't plan on using the dial up modem, if the cat5 works that'll be my main deal, the wifi is something I need to get into, I'm sure I'll have a lot to learn how to sniff out hot spots and getting logged in.

As for the haibernate, That's another deal that I'll play with and learn, I am interested in getting some repair manuals, even if thier just PDF. I'll have to look into that.

I don't really need a DVD burner, I bought one for my desktop and some disk, and I've only bruned a couple of disk in just about as many years. But I do need the CD/RW. My last laptop didn't have a burner and it was always a problem doing backup.

Infact the day it died, I had to jerk the HD and USB it into another PC just to save my data because I hadn't done a backup for sometime.

There is one other item I've just thought of, It'll come with winXP and no recovery disks, now I don't plan on using XP, but if I can resize the partion easy. I would leave it there.

Which package is best to resize a NTFS partion? I have Knoppix and also a live Gparted CD I normally use for that, but normally I don't have to deal with NTFS, just fat32.
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#15 Post by mority »

@AgentT
Wasn't aware of most of this. You are right, IBM or Lenovo respectively offer very good service in Germany. That's why they are called "business notebooks" often. Thanks for the explanation.

@muskrat
Have fun with your new toy ;)

According to this table it should be no problem to shrink a NTFS partition with gparted.

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#16 Post by muskrat »

According to this table it should be no problem to shrink a NTFS partition with gparted.
That would be great, provided my live CD has "ntfsprogs" install also. we'll see.

That was interesting about,
In fact, the USA style "limited warranty" that you receive with all electronic equipment is not just horrible by German standards, it is illegal in Germany and the rest of Europe.
Another item to which america falls short on the global scale.
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#17 Post by AgenT »

You should note two things about having Windows pre-installed.
1) There is an extra, hidden, recovery partition that is hidden even in GNU/Linux
2) This partition can be used to recover Windows

This means that if you have a working recovery partition, you can safely remove your Windows partition and if you need it back, you can use the recovery partition to get it back.

If you do not want Windows at all, and have no need for it in the future, then removing just the Windows partition is not enough. You should remove the hidden recovery partition as well.

To remove this partition, all you have to do is to turn it off via the BIOS. This will allow GNU/Linux to see it and therefore to remove it.

See more that thinkwiki.

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#18 Post by llivv »

<
Last edited by llivv on 2019-02-15 16:27, edited 1 time in total.
In memory of Ian Ashley Murdock (1973 - 2015) founder of the Debian project.

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#19 Post by muskrat »

This means that if you have a working recovery partition, you can safely remove your Windows partition and if you need it back, you can use the recovery partition to get it back.

To remove this partition, all you have to do is to turn it off via the BIOS. This will allow GNU/Linux to see it and therefore to remove it.
By get it back, how would you go about that? and if you did would it wipe your other partions after you repartion?

So the Bios is hiding that partion! Interesting.

As a sideline this brings to mind, I bought a thumb drive, which When loaded automaticly in gnome it loads two drives. So I repationed it and formatted it to ext3, but it still loads two drives. So how would a person unhide that other partition on a thumb drive?

Like I siad a side line nothing to do with my laptop.
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#20 Post by AgenT »

Read my posts, there are links to articles explaining everything you want to know.

And yes, the restore partition will restore your whole computer to the original state, which means it will wipe all of your custom made partitions (GNU/Linux, etc.).

The reason why this partition is hidden is very simple: security. You do not want viruses to corrupt the restore partition (remember, this is used in Windows land with lots of viruses).

The hidden partition, like the Windows partition, has no use for GNU/Linux even though there are some efforts to make it usable. I suggest disabling the partition and wiping the drive clean.

To get into the restore program, click the "Thinkpad" button on BIOS screen (it will tell you when).

As per your USB disk problem. You cannot fix this defect. You cannot modify that separate partition. I suggest returning the defective product or throwing it away. That uneditable partition has special proprietary software on it, cannot be modified, and in truth, I would not trust plugging it into my computer. Do not buy removable storage with such a defective design. Be careful, because a lot of times manufactures will lie on the packaging and make it seem as if their software is removable when in fact it is not.

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