Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

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Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby arochester » 2017-07-15 10:13

Debian 9 Stretch is a horrible disappointment. It's a completely unusable product in my scenario, and I see no real reason why I should bother using it. Ubuntu and friends offer a superior experience. Perhaps Debian serves a purposes somewhere, but I fail to see it. What really irks me is that in six or so years since I've last tried it, it's as if nothing at all has changed. Exactly the same kind of issues, only different hardware and kernel modules.

I may be too picky, but Debian is not a distribution that can afford any glitches, either in software or design. It should be polished to the very fine detail.

Unfortunately, I have not seen that in Debian 9 Cinnamon. I’m disappointed.

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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby None1975 » 2017-07-15 11:01

Personally, i don't like Dedomeido articles...very subjective person....And this, this person do reviews in Live mode...what a shame....
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Lysander » 2017-07-15 12:05

Debian is much more DIY than other distros like Mint, Ubuntu, and presumably those Arch derivatives mentioned [I haven't tried Manjaro properly]. As I've said elsewhere I have a [now] 30+ point list of items I have to do to get my Debian OS how I want it after installation. When I first installed Jessie it took me two weeks to get it how I wanted. After installing Stretch it took me only an afternoon, since I had a much better idea of what I was doing. But that two weeks with Jessie was necessary because I wanted to learn, and I was interested in Debian. It's all part of a] discovering more about Linux and the distro and b] adhering to the Debian ethic. The latter - an OS which is 100% free software, but which gives the user the option to install non-free if they desire - is a crucial part of Debian. Other distros work well out of the box: Debian gives you completely free software out of the box.

It's not for everyone, which articles like these show. It's similar to complaining that Gentoo takes too long to install in comparison to Ubuntu which "just works". It's Linux, you have the choice to use a distro which not only fulfils your practical needs, but your technical competence/goals and your ethical interests. A lot of the complaints seem to revolve around Debian being 'basic' or 'unpolished', but I don't see these things as flaws. In a way they're strengths.

I can't comment on the wireless side of things since I use wired internet. I have heard of there being wireless issues, but I imagine they're not too tricky to sort out and involve mostly finding the right package [similarly to getting ATI cards to work - when I first boot into a new installation I'm presented with a grainy 1280x1024 desktop until I install the non-free firmware]. It would be good if someone could comment on that.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby kedaha » 2017-07-15 12:32

I just use mate which looks and feels to me much like Gnome 2, which I first used when Debian 4, Etch came out
What really disappoints me about Debian 9 is that the Open Sound System packages for OSS4 ―which I consider produce superior sound quality and therefore use in preference to ALSA and Pulseaudio― are no longer available from Debian stretch's main repository. I may be mistaken but I suspect this has a lot to do with systemd requirements. If Debian ceases to provide choice in this, then I may well seriously consider changing to Devuan for my desktop systems even though I continue to use Debian for my dedicated server. But, who knows? Maybe OSS4 will find its way back into Debian 10!
I am, however, looking at finding a way to configure stretch to use OSS4.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby acewiza » 2017-07-15 13:21

Lysander wrote:...but I imagine they're not too tricky to sort out and involve mostly finding the right package [similarly to getting ATI cards to work...

The relatively large number of available packages along with the whole concept of "package management," for lack of a better term, is Debian's double-edged sword. Personally, Lysander's comment above pretty much sums up the only times I've had troublesome issues. Unfortunately not alot of people are going to get through that type thing unscathed. It can be more complicated than most people are willing to deal with. Oh well. :roll:
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Bulkley » 2017-07-15 14:27

From arochester"s first post:
Ubuntu and friends offer a superior experience.

I have never thought of a computer OS as an experience. To me, it is a tool box loaded with tools. In this sense, Debian exceeds.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby edbarx » 2017-07-15 16:03

I 'dislike' Debian to such an extent that since 2006 I practically haven't stopped using it!
Debian == { > 30, 000 packages }; Debian != systemd
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby stevepusser » 2017-07-15 16:47

In the review, he said that "Debian comes with the right firmware." I wonder if he has the wrong idea about the standard "free" ISO images, and if that could be at the root of his problems.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby FreewheelinFrank » 2017-07-15 17:05

Live edition, begin boot. No problems with Lenovo G50 & UEFI, although you do get an ugly double beep before the GRUB menu loads.

A computer beeping at you during boot is trying to tell you something: apparently this reviewer has no curiosity as to what.

The reviewer also seems to be unaware that the kernel might need some non-free firmware in order to run his/her hardware. As comments are not open, there is no way to recommend the live edition with non-free packages.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby sunrat » 2017-07-16 01:37

I just lost respect for both these reviewers. Testing live versions with presumably no non-free firmware and niche non-default DE (yes, my opinion on Cinnamon) with no objectivity and no understanding of DFSG.
Sheesh! :roll:
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Innovate » 2017-07-16 04:21

I've throw away expectation from that screwed live cd long ago. Nothing any better than custom install from netinstall cd.
That's appiled to all out of the box distro as well not only Debian. Also I've aware that even before dedoimedo was pissed.
At first I was thoguht those DE live cd can be such out of the box as Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu in Debian terms, but I wrong.
They're nothing but just "live cd sample" not an out of the box distro cd. These 2 are different.

You guys already discuss about it long ago:
So just dedoimedo's rant is nothing new for me.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby MALsPa » 2017-07-16 07:59

Dedoimedo wrote, "Anyway, my tolerance levels for un-PnP features of the Linux desktop have dropped significantly, and so I was reluctant to try Debian."

Indeed, seems that if a distro isn't of the "plug-n-play" variety, Dedoimedo has little time for it. I don't approach a release that way, and I think it's fair to say that most Debian users don't, either. But many other users do want something that works right away, out of the box, without hassles. Debian isn't for those types of users. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your point of view, I guess.

As noted, Dedoimedo tested the live environment, and didn't attempt an installation. This review would have been much more scathing, I suspect, if he had proceeded to try an installation from the live session! :lol:

I have not used a live image to install Stretch; I went with a netinstall, and when Stretch was still in Testing I did an installation using the Xfce CD-1 iso.

At the moment, I'm looking at the live session from the debian-live-9.0.1-amd64-gnome.iso image, on my "old" HP G72 notebook, using an ethernet connection. Maybe it's good that I don't bother to mess around with wi-fi; one less thing to concern myself with.

Default decorations and aesthetics don't concern me, but Dedoimedo would look at the default dssktop and call it "ugly." I'd disagree, but no matter. Anyway, no problem getting online and browsing with Firefox ESR. Trying, for a moment, to look at things through Dedoimedo's eyes, one thing that pops out is that there's no "Install" icon on the desktop, no option to begin installing the system from within the live session. That, of course, has been noted in these forums, and elsewhere, but I kinda wonder why that little convenience wouldn't be included.

One other thing is that after a period of inaction, the screen locker comes on, and then I'm looking at a login screen, and a password is required to get back into the session. Of course there's no indication of what that password might be. The obvious thing to do would be to provide a "hint" right there, which is something that I've seen in other distros, but whatever. Took me only three tries to get back into the session; I tried debian, then I tried user, then finally scored with live. There's some documentation somewhere that tells what password to use, no doubt, but the user would have to actually take a moment to look it up. We all know how that goes -- many users don't want to bother looking anything up. :roll:

Not that I'm complaining. I know what I'm getting with Debian, and I know how to work with it. Debian's my favorite distro, and has been for years. But Debian isn't for everyone. And we all know that Linux isn't for everyone.

I don't know if Debian will ever be the kind of distro that pleases someone like Dedoimedo, but I don't think that this review should be simply dismissed, because there are many users out there who will look at it and realize that they might want to go with a different distro.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby Innovate » 2017-07-17 03:03

Debian is like lv1 wild pokemon or lv1 mmorpg character. Wild and never been trained it need user's attention to raise them.
Even they made a live cd it's still just lv1 with many lv1 equipments which looks like strong but not really.
And those end-users are mistook those live cd gonna work out of the box like buntu's iso flavors.

What do you expect a lv1 pokemon to beat lv50 wild pokemon it's even absurd to do that.
and Dedoimedo is like a pokemon trainer that blame his wild pokemon pickachu lv5 for being "weak" that catched not long ago
can't even defeat lv22 water pokemon and those other out of the box deviaratives they're like lv20-lv35 wild pokemon
and these ppl that catch it they never raise them because they think they already strong enough.

Why you guys picked debian and never give up it's simple. You're realize that you're enjoy raising your pokemon from lv1-lv100 as I do.
Debian is no different. Drop debian to other distro is more like release your lv1 wild pokemon to embrace lv20-35 new wild pokemon.
But raising pokemon from 1 to 35 as wild pokemon lv the trained pokemon they're stronger and got bonus atk and better skills atk.
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby VentGrey » 2017-07-17 05:28

Because I know an end when I see one.

How many times have I read that line about Debian? anyways, I think Debian should not go full-desktop, users can build a pretty neat one, true but is it really necessary to make Debian a full-blown desktop distro?

A text boot. No nice splash.
Was it too difficult to install plymouth on your own? (not for the OP XD)

I noticed all sorts of error messages related to the Realtek firmware
Now this one catches my eye, I do experience this "error" which fixes by installing the firmware, If I might ask why we do not have it per-se? I've seen most distros having it by default, from Fedora to a guy named PcLOS.

Eventually, the desktop loaded. It ain't a pretty thing. The icons are horrible. The system area looks out of place with that over-sized Bluetooth icon. It sure isn't inviting in its naked, unpolished form.
Since when the default Debian desktops are pretty? I've installed XFCE, MATE and even Budgie and they are all ugly as #$@!. I think part of it it's because Debian offers the user the posibility to customize their "naked" desktops and not stick with default flat/glass themes. (Tho It may be a good idea to have a exclusive-Debian icon set).

Debian is not perfect, maybe some of us (myself included) should join the #desktop-team to try and "reduce" this buggy things people complain so much about. :mrgreen:

What do you think comrades?
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Re: Some people don't like Debian 9 [ARTICLES]

Postby sgage » 2017-07-17 10:06

Bulkley wrote:From arochester"s first post:
Ubuntu and friends offer a superior experience.

I have never thought of a computer OS as an experience. To me, it is a tool box loaded with tools. In this sense, Debian exceeds.

This 'experience' talk is marketing-speak. In other words, meaningless babble. What he really meant was "I prefer Ubuntu". Therefore, it must be superior, right?

These people really want a Mac or Windows. 8)
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