Debian User Forums

Good afternoon, well, it is not necessary to explain the issue of systemd or go into why it is bad, I just want to ask if debian has in their plans to change init or at least give to choose during the installation that init wants to install.

I ask because I have just heard this rumor, which should give you to choose the desired init during the installation.

I know devuan exists, and it is a very noble project but it is not debian and does not have debian support/developers.

Thank you.

You can actually change it now for yourself. Just go to settings > init and untick "systemd", you can select "Sys-V" instead if you wish.

OK, that isn't true. I don't think there are many devs here but someone may know something. You may prefer to go to the Debian Reddit - I know Chris Lamb hangs out there regularly [and that is true].

Snake94 wrote:I ask because I have just heard this rumor, which should give you to choose the desired init during the installation.

Link to the source for this "rumor" or go back under your bridge.

dasein wrote:

Snake94 wrote:I ask because I have just heard this rumor, which should give you to choose the desired init during the installation.

Link to the source for this "rumor" or go back under your bridge.

If I had a source would not be a rumor do not you think?

Please for the love of whatever one holds sacred, do not feed this insanely obvious troll.

(P.S> WTF is up with postimg. Their "thumbnail" is now larger than the original??)

I am no troll, I have only asked if anyone knows anything about the future of debian as far as its init is concerned.

(P.S> WTF is up with postimg. Their "thumbnail" is now larger than the original??)

Don't know, can you give a example ?
If you give me a link to the image, I can fix it, and give you a link for the thumb nail.

wizard10000 wrote:I'd thought about asking forum admins if he could do an AMA here - still thinking on it.

Would be a very nice idea. Just don't do it when I'm abroad mid September!

OK, this thread has the potential for being hijacked twice.

Ok,Close the thread, if you think I'm a troll for asking a question, close the thread.

Huh. Accidentally successful strategy. Making note for future reference.

dasein wrote:Huh. Accidentally successful strategy. Making note for future reference.

Do you really think I'm a troll for asking a simple question? Close the thread

Snake94 wrote:Good afternoon, well, it is not necessary to explain the issue of systemd or go into why it is bad, I just want to ask if debian has in their plans to change init or at least give to choose during the installation that init wants to install.

It was commonly recognised that SysV was in need of updating/changing .. for instance to move away from being serial. SystemD is one such alternative of several that caters for concurrency/parallel, along with many other benefits. If in your opinion sysD is bad, SysV is worse as that is what most are progressing away from.

No install choice, but there is a boot choice i.e. Debian can still be booted using sysV IIRC by adding something like a init=/lib/sysvinit/init kernel boot parameter. There are also 32 bit versions of Debian ... but you're out of luck if you'd rather boot 8 bit or 16 bit.

ruffwoof wrote:

Snake94 wrote:Good afternoon, well, it is not necessary to explain the issue of systemd or go into why it is bad, I just want to ask if debian has in their plans to change init or at least give to choose during the installation that init wants to install.

No install choice, but there is a boot choice i.e. Debian can still be booted using sysV IIRC by adding something like a init=/lib/sysvinit/init kernel boot parameter.

Thank you, I did not know that.

PD: It is true that sysV is very old and I understand that you are looking for alternatives, but maybe openrc would have been a healthier option from my point of view.

The thing of it is, the Debian developers and others went around in circles for quite some
time, arguing about this issue, and it is all very well documented.
It all was very controversial, but it is over, the decision was made and Debian now uses systemd, As far as I know, there are no plans to change the decision that was made.
Debian will continue using systemd, and there will not be any easy way or other option for using sysV init, in the Debian releases.
So, a group of Debian developers, decided to no longer work on Debian development,
but start a new "fork", called "Devaun"
Here on this forum , it is Debian users, not Debian Developers, if you are not a troll, and
genuinely want to know about the future plans for Debian, you should ask them:
https://www.debian.org/contact
=========================
https://www.debian.org/devel/
===
https://lists.debian.org/devel.html
It probably would be better to use:
https://lists.debian.org/users.html
First, then maybe someone will point you to a better source, that is
fact, and not rumour,... a few developers do follow and read the users list.

Instead of listening to rumours, or starting a very controversial topic on forums, where "rumours"
and more rumours about the rumours are abundant, actually, many forums just close and delete any new topics, on this,... it is old history. Occasionally "trolls" do pop up, and try to start yet another "systemd" topic, generally with the same sort of comment "I heard this some where ",.... bla bla.

GarryRicketson wrote:Debian Developers, if you are not a troll, and genuinely want to know about the future plans for Debian, you should ask them:

NO. Do not waste devs' time, Garry.

Contribute to the hijack(s) or let it go.

Speaking of hijacks... anyone remember the nonsense megathread? Maybe we need to morf this thread into another one.

GarryRicketson wrote:The thing of it is, the Debian developers and others went around in circles for quite some
time, arguing about this issue, and it is all very well documented.
It all was very controversial, but it is over, the decision was made and Debian now uses systemd, As far as I know, there are no plans to change the decision that was made.
Debian will continue using systemd, and there will not be any easy way or other option for using sysV init, in the Debian releases.
So, a group of Debian developers, decided to no longer work on Debian development,
but start a new "fork", called "Devaun"
Here on this forum , it is Debian users, not Debian Developers, if you are not a troll, and
genuinely want to know about the future plans for Debian, you should ask them:
https://www.debian.org/contact
=========================
https://www.debian.org/devel/
===
https://lists.debian.org/devel.html
It probably would be better to use:
https://lists.debian.org/users.html
First, then maybe someone will point you to a better source, that is
fact, and not rumour,... a few developers do follow and read the users list.

Instead of listening to rumours, or starting a very controversial topic on forums, where "rumours"
and more rumours about the rumours are abundant, actually, many forums just close and delete any new topics, on this,... it is old history. Occasionally "trolls" do pop up, and try to start yet another "systemd" topic, generally with the same sort of comment "I heard this some where ",.... bla bla.

First of all, thanks for the references.

Sorry if the thread was not appropriate to this forum, I did not intend to create this controversy.
I made the mistake of putting this thread here, okay, but that's not why I have to call troll or use sarcastic comments.

@GarryR: it's not a question of "fixing" the image. The image that I originally uploaded to postimg was tiny--only 68-x-68 pixels. But the "thumbnail" created by postimg was nearly 4x that size.

I mean, yeah, they are the ones providing free hosting and all, but still, dramatically enlarging an image while calling it a "thumbnail" seems pretty brain-damaged.

It does seem odd, Maybe they have it (the thumb nail size) pre set in some way, If it was a large image
, say 600 x 600, it would be a "thumb nail" that is what ever value/size they use
IE: 300 x 300,... however since yours was only 68 x 68, it would appear almost 4 times
larger, because it included the thumb nail tag.
I wonder what happens if you did not use any "thumb nail", I would expect it to
show as the same size, 68 x 68,...
I am not sure about "post image", how they do the thumb nails,...a search will
tell me that, ... (to be continued )


The above was a large image , aprox 600x800
below a small "avatar", and I used the "thumb nail" option,
indeed it makes it bigger

============
This is the image, with "no resize" option

and that is correct, it is the size it should be. The actual size is 54x64 (aprox)
======================
It is kind of weird the way they do this,...

GarryRicketson wrote:This is the image, with "no resize" option

and that is correct, it is the size it should be. The actual size is 54x64 (aprox)

Huh. I always use the "no resize" option. (If I want an image resized, I do it myself prior to uploading.)

I find myself increasingly disenchanted with postimg. They made some sort of change recently that broke a bunch of older images I'd posted. And now this.

To paraphrase an old saying, "'Free' image hosting sites are only free if your time is worth nothing."

Snake94 wrote:It is true that sysV is very old and I understand that you are looking for alternatives, but maybe openrc would have been a healthier option from my point of view.

As you said

but it is not debian and does not have debian support/developers

Debian is unrivaled in being a complete system. For instance I've just been trying out FreeBSD and its pkg (similar to apt ... that pulls down pre-built binaries) is nowhere near as good as Debians. Frustratingly so, to the extent its not really viable and you have to adopt the compile everything stance (ports). Nor is their service model (upgrades etc.) any good, resulting in more likely having to rebuild from scratch sooner or later (and try and remember all of the tweaks etc. you'd applied (and considerable time/effort doing all of that)). The flexibility and functionality of Debian is fantastic and systemD may very well help improve upon that further - perhaps for instance at some point a choice of browser being just a service that you can activate/deactivate as desired ...etc.

Go with the root I'd say https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/ ... ee1210.jpg rather than those that ride on the back of a giant.

I fell into Debian after having left XP (after a number of years of having used that) back in 2014 when Windows pulled support, and after having tried a vast range of "Linux distro's". Personally I'm content to use older versions of programs as my needs are relatively light and I like the rock solid stability, so I just stick with oldstable (main respositories only, no contrib nor non-free) and my system is better IMO than any of the alternatives (single provider, fantastic range of programs, easy to manage, solid and secure). I have little understanding of init and background programming etc. and from a front end view I saw little if any difference between Debian and Devuan (systemD and sysV). SystemD works very well as far as I'm concerned. Nice additional features such as systemd-analyse blame showing all the startup timings, or even the 'plot' parameter that produces a nice svg image of those timings. Its through its early years phase and is well set to mature (get better) with time.

Have a think about what the others that ride off Debian's back will do when more of its repositories are aligned to systemD. Either they can try and replicate their own repositories and perhaps be like FreeBSD (a poor reflection), or take whatever alternative they deem fit, that likely will have considerably less manpower behind that (not have debian support/developers).