Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

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Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby makh » 2017-08-14 00:16

http://distrowatch.com/
today shows, Devuan at #37.

If theres only a few packages difference between the two, and the main packages of Devuan are coming from within the Debian Repos, then the project should be co-developed rather than having splits due to a single package "systemd".

In my view the debian developers & devuan developers should keep on working for FOSS, unitedly... :P :idea:

Unfortunately still Windows rule the market share of Desktops + Laptops.

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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby kedaha » 2017-08-14 06:56

Forks are a fact of life in Linux distributions (I always refrain from using the abbreviation distro though I do like a good bistro :wink: ). Installing Devuan invokes a script which gets rid of systemd but after that —where's the choice? Between two distributions.

Regarding systemd I'm only now beginning to understand it a little but there've been other developments in Debian which I don't go along with; I'm very content with my server but on the desktop environment front, I don't use ALSA but am a firm proponent of the Open Sound System or OSSv4 without Pulseaudio. I note, by the way, that a Red Hat developer surnamed Poettering has played a pivotal role not only in the init—>systemd transition but also in making the ALSA and Pulseaudio combination almost universal, to the exclusion of my preferred system. I think something similar would've happened in a relatively short space of time to init, which would've been similarly marginalised had it not been for Devuan. It's not so easy for major alternative systems like systemd and init or Alsa/Pulseaudio and OSSv4 (unavailable in the current stable repository) to co-exist in the same space because development of one comes at the expense of the other. This is unlike having, for example, a minor choice between browsers or chess programs.

So I welcome the birth of Devuan which provides a way for init —and I hope also OSSv4 and maybe other things also—to live on, which is not to say that having diverged, Debian and Devuan might not eventually converge again in the future, but I doubt it.
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby edbarx » 2017-08-14 15:21

As said before my post, Debian has chosen systemd. Removing systemd and still being able to use Debian's entire repository, is absolutely a very complicated and time consuming task requiring many developer hours. The reason for this is, if a package uses exported functions from systemd/libsystemd0, that function must be replaced with something else and the code modified accordingly. Note also, there are upstream developers who provide a means to avoid systemd without having to modify code.
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby VentGrey » 2017-08-15 04:23

I think Debian & Devuan can work together not by eliminating systemd but instead trying to indulge people into init choices & free (Libre) operating systems, If systemd users censor sysv/openRC, etc users and backwards the free software conventions would be violated since you are taking away the freedom of choice, It would be better if both sides cooperated for a unique-goal, maybe if new users or inter users informed themselves better they could choose an init that fits them :D
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby makh » 2017-08-15 06:18

edbarx wrote:As said before my post, Debian has chosen systemd. Removing systemd and still being able to use Debian's entire repository, is absolutely a very complicated and time consuming task requiring many developer hours. The reason for this is, if a package uses exported functions from systemd/libsystemd0, that function must be replaced with something else and the code modified accordingly. Note also, there are upstream developers who provide a means to avoid systemd without having to modify code.

Your point is very valid. But how much this impacts on the debian packages as a whole?

... I am discussing an option; the Devuan Developers are working on "something", if that "something" still remains there, and is made part of the Debian Project, and under Debian Rules, like they claim on there website. Then just adding Devuan on debian.org shouldnt be an issue. The rest of the Debian developers wouldnt be disturbed... I think so...
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby debiman » 2017-08-16 15:57

makh wrote:
http://distrowatch.com/
today shows, Devuan at #37.
a distrowatch ranking for a short time span is - well it means that "right now, lots of people are looking at devuan's distrowatch page".

there's no point quoting that or even using it as an opening argument for YAST (yet another sxxxxxd thread).

If theres only a few packages difference between the two, and the main packages of Devuan are coming from within the Debian Repos, then the project should be co-developed rather than having splits due to a single package "systemd".
wasn't the whole point of devuan to split off debian, because those "few packages" are what makes all the difference to some?
and "split" - you make it sound like a catastrophe - let's call a fork a fork, shall we?

Unfortunately still Windows rule the market share of Desktops + Laptops.

no, it is very fortunate for me.
if debian ruled the marked, that would be truly horrible.
one might even have to pay for it, and all the implications that arise from being a paying customer.
or, just have a look at ubuntu...
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby dasein » 2017-08-16 16:22

debiman wrote:
makh wrote:
http://distrowatch.com/
today shows, Devuan at #37.
[snip]
there's no point quoting that...

+100 Whywhywhy do people continue to insist on citing distrowatch's PHR as though it represents, well, anything??

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78427&start=15#p430130 (et seq.)

makh wrote:the project should be co-developed rather than having splits due to a single package "systemd".

Oh FFS, systemd is not a "single package." (Man, the level of sheer stupidity around here is becoming downright gobsmacking.)

Unfortunately still Windows rule the market share of Desktops + Laptops.

Oh darn, Windows is still king of an increasingly marginalized market. :roll:
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby golinux » 2017-08-16 16:28

dasein wrote:
makh wrote:the project should be co-developed rather than having splits due to a single package "systemd".
Oh FFS, systemd is not a "single package." (Man, the level of sheer stupidity around here is becoming downright gobsmacking.)
No kidding. Reposting for truth: Open letter to the Linux World
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Re: Devuan ~ Integration into Debian Development

Postby Bulkley » 2017-08-16 18:23

golinux, that's a great letter you linked to.
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