Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

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Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby makh » 2017-12-12 17:42

Hi

Please ... NOTE:
1. This post should not be read by anyone seriously attached to Debian in any way.
2. Debian Stable is very good & very reliable, once it doesnt disturbs one in running the hardware.
3. No disrespect or negativity is intended, in any way to any Debian Developer or Team or other involved in Debian project, in any way.
4. My extreme sorry, in case someone still gets annoyed.
5. I am just a student in terms of Debian, not a Guru.



:idea: The very idea of Debian Stable ... seems to be:
1. To work, what is intended by applications in repos, (may include kernel).
2. Be stable to keep on working, trouble free (few device drivers may not apply).
3. Be maximum/good secured by default possible.
4. Have minimum bugs.
5. According to debian.org; run on any computer, but no stable installers + stable OS for my phone, yet.

Thats why Debian 6, got/attracted me into the Debian. :) 8) ... or perhaps there was no better option, back then...

Any ways... I have some nit-bits:


1. Bug reported on a software, ... and got advised to upgrade to testing, so that application runs. Am I on stable, really? I cant (what to say) to the Debian Developer or probably the upstream Developer... what to say ... :?

2. 9.3 comes, and still xbacklight doesnt work, bug report was sent to the maintainer, during 9 was still in testing... I cant say about other 51000 minus 1 applications, as I dont use all. min

3. Do really Debian needs branding by the name of POINT RELEASES, as on:
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/errata
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases/PointReleases
It would have been much better if /etc/debian_version told: Stable ver. 9 with 2% bugs remaining echo "please run apt bugs to see current bugs in your selected debian applications", and on next point release we get to see 1.8% bugs, wow improving... nothing is still perfect. :roll:

4. Point releases make a feel of a competition to other distros... but as a debian user, I would prefer Debian on any other distro. Does Point Release benefits any one, anything? Isnt Stable version number ... all enough? :? ... Debian is an old and reliable system to many...

5. Bluetooth is non functional ... but runs painlessly using Kubuntu. But since I dont use it... so not a matter, till now. (This may not apply fully to my topic, here).

6. It is not Desktop friendly, as it seems to be Server friendly. Or probably never mentioned on debian.org ... Desktop/Laptop seems to be the least preferred.

7. Standard Installer, by default doesnt contain the non free firmware, or atleast an alternate installer doesnt exist, usually which is a annoying, for me.

8. apt should also have had, eg: apt bugs thunar, prior to upgrading, if a person requires it, to display possible disasters, so a person installing may choose dolphin etc instead. After all FM is responsible for personal data, more important than many others, nm or firefox should not destroy your data, if it cant connect you to anywebsiteetc.com.

Thanks for reading till here ... :wink:

Do share your grievances, only for STABLE, probably it will heal mines or microsize them ... :lol:

Thankyou
:)
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-12-12 17:52

I would have agreed on almost everything, but this is blatantly wrong:
7. Standard Installer, by default doesnt contain the non free firmware, or atleast an alternate installer doesnt exist, usually which is a annoying, for me.


Do the search for Debian non-free image.
Point releases are there to fix more serious bugs. At least they should do that, and not introduce new ones.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby RU55EL » 2017-12-12 19:32

makh wrote:[...]Do share your grievances, only for STABLE, probably it will heal mines or microsize them ... :lol:[...]


Sorry, but I don't have any grievances to share.

I run Debian on hardware that doesn't require non-free drivers or firmware.

I prefer tried and true software, which is what Debian Stable is all about.

I find that Debian Stable is the best Desktop operating system I've used since I bought my first computer a Timex/Sinclair Z80.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby Felix Carbury » 2017-12-13 01:25

Freind, you’ve got some legitimate gripes there. What is so great about this Debian stuff, anyway?

Stable in Debianspeak doesn’t necessarily mean robust, solid or reliable. It means that there are no system upgrades to break your installation. I have a few nits to pick with Debian too. Almost everyone does. But I keep coming back. Mint and Ubuntu are very good but there are often surprises after an upgrade. With Debian, sure you have to fix some things. But after you fix something it stays fixed.

That peace of mind is worth some tweaking and fixing at the outset.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby woteb » 2017-12-13 07:01

#7: There is also a non-free-firmware iso available: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
You can use this for installing on firmware unfriendly systems; There is also a multiarch iso for X86 and AMD64 systems.
#5: When using this non-free-firmware iso's install CD/DVD you also possibly have the bluetooth working.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby bw123 » 2017-12-13 08:17

I've used four stables now, squeeze, wheezy, jessie and stretch. The way I look at it is my job after release is to tweak and prune and get my system as 'stable' as possible, and wait for point releases/security to fix what I can't.

I have never installed a debian system that 'just worked' and had no bugs, and I never expected to.

Something I do that might help is isolate the problems, instead of thinking about "a few" at a time.

Most of the time I create a little text file, for instance called 'filemanagerproblem' or 'resumeproblem' and start pasting error messages, web links, syslog entries or whatever, and each fix I try and the results.

Here's one to illustrate the idea, this was an issue with crash on resume from suspend. a real PITA it took me several weeks to get it.

Code: Select all
The solution is in file /etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.freedesktop.UPower.conf

remove the two <allow sections referring to
"org.freedesktop.UPower.KbdBacklight"

---
$ ps ax |grep power
  714 ?        Ssl    0:00 /usr/lib/upower/upowerd
  758 ?        Sl     0:00 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexec/org_kde_powerdevil
 1159 pts/4    S+     0:00 grep power
$ kill 758
$ pkill -f org_kde_powerdevil && /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexec/org_kde_powerdevil &
$ powerdevil: Backend loaded, loading core

looks like the problem is here:
/var/lib/systemd/backlight/platform-dell-laptop:leds:dell::kbd_backlight

nope, it's here
/sys/devices/platform/dell-laptop/leds/dell::kbd_backlight
need to find a way to remove this or keep powerdevil from finding it

/usr/share/kservices5/powerdevilkeyboardbrightnesscontrolaction.desktop.bak
removed the slider from the ui, didn't work to prevent crash
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby None1975 » 2017-12-13 12:17

Since Debian 8, i never had any problems with OS. I run Debian on hardware that doesn't require non-free drivers or firmware. I find that Debian Stable is the best Desktop operating system I've used since I came from Arch Linux land.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby makh » 2017-12-14 04:14

Hi,

Wheelerof4te wrote:...
Point releases are there to fix more serious bugs. At least they should do that, and not introduce new ones.

a) So you agree to all, except #7.
b)http://debian.melbourneitmirror.net/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/
says:
Non-free Firmware

This is an official Debian image build and so only includes Free Software.

For convenience for some users, there is an alternative unofficial netinst CD build which includes non-free firmware for extra support for some awkward hardware. Look under /cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ if you need that CD image instead.

Please note it is "unofficial", so perhaps I can use it, next time.
c) Please explain HOW A POINT RELEASE HELPS YOU. Linux Mint currently release Point Release Sylvia after Point Release Sonya, that looked so beautiful for a Newbie oriented linux, but here in debian..? :roll:

RU55EL wrote:...

So you have no bugs or reported unsolved basic bugs of even plain simple execution. You probably are using server only. :!:

Felix Carbury wrote:....
Nice to know... But I believe the "stable" should be reliable and countable, just as any other proper backed distro like redhat. And it is, ...
... but some minor issues should have been automatically tested, its possible if they would run a basic simulation inside say virtual environment, and confirm that basic A-B-C atleast works, before flagging it as 9.0/Stable in the first place.
Thats why, I still have not upgraded my old stable to stable, on my maintainence / recovery, separate partition.

woteb wrote:#7:...
#5: ...

Sir!
a) #7 ... above
b) #5 ... Bluetooth and wireless, are currently issues running on different linux forums. But I think the developer of my RTL7238BE, declared it stable on git, long before launch of Debian 9. But I didnt had any critical requirement to use it. I didnt test all tools for while.

bw123 wrote:
+1

None1975 wrote:...

Sir!
a) your issues may depend on the applications you are using from list of 51,000. If they are packaged for Debian, they should work, bugs should be in. But this will be out of scope of this discussion.
b) [OFFTOPIC ] ... Arch has its pros & cons. What I really love versus tumbleweed is that, the dependency issues dont force one to update everything in one go. I keep kernel update slower. Still using 4.13...
c) [OFFTOPIC ] ... Basic packages of Mac or Windows are probably even less than 50. Though office has to be installed separately.

Thankyou all
:)
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby RU55EL » 2017-12-14 06:20

makh wrote:[...]
RU55EL wrote:...

So you have no bugs or reported unsolved basic bugs of even plain simple execution. You probably are using server only. :!:


I only have one server that has been out of service for about a year and a half. But, when in use, I would shut it down every six months to clean the dust from the heatsinks and fans. So, it went six months at a time between reboots.

Current, I use three Intel NUCs, one at work (desktop), one at home (desktop), and the one I am using to post this message, connected to my TV (also a desktop) all running pure Debian stable. Two notebook computers, a Dell D530 (Running Fedora. This is my old notebook used to play with other operating systems) and an Asus K55A that is my every day carry notebook computer running pure Debian stable. I did replace the wifi card in the Asus K55A with one that doesn't require non-free firmware.

The computers that I have running Debian Stable have been absolutely trouble free. Upgrading from Debian 8 to Debian 9, I performed a clean install on all three NUCs. (/home is on a separate partition, allowing retention of settings and data.) To perform a clean install on all three, and install the software that I use, took about an hour and a half. (About a half hour per computer.)

Maybe not the most shiny and new software, but Debian Stable desktop, is rock solid in my experience.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby sgage » 2017-12-14 11:22

Wheelerof4te wrote:I would have agreed on almost everything, but this is blatantly wrong:
7. Standard Installer, by default doesnt contain the non free firmware, or atleast an alternate installer doesnt exist, usually which is a annoying, for me.


Do the search for Debian non-free image.
Point releases are there to fix more serious bugs. At least they should do that, and not introduce new ones.


I thought point releases were to simply put all the updates since first release into a new installation image so that a fresh install wouldn't have to apply months/years' worth of updates. Applying updates to the original x.0 release is equivalent to the point releases. I.e., there are no bugfixes, serious or other, in the point release that you don't get by simply updating regularly.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-12-14 11:28

^click

This point release mainly adds corrections for security issues, along with a few adjustments for serious problems. Security advisories have already been published separately and are referenced where available.

This stable update adds a few important corrections to the following packages:


Plus what you said, point releases really do contain all previously published security patches.
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby makh » 2017-12-15 10:02

Hi

@ RU55EL :
Good for you... :!:

@ sgage :
These are Debians' multi birthdays celebrated afew times during the life time of STABLE... :lol: (no offense to anyone).
2. Basically Debian is a large project, and has its own so many based distros. It doesnt require this fashion imaging. The based distros, may be more eye catching by this way.
3. I remember the time when WindowsXP got released and it was shown in CNN, how people stood in long lines to buy their CD. :roll:
4. I dont think Debian Users are really concerned about this. They do appraise the stable on X.0, but there arent too many "baloons to sight" on the X.1 to X.2 to X.3 to ... Perhaps after 6/8 months, still wont be bad.

@ Wheelerof4te :
Fine... agreed.

Nice to hear from you all... Thankyou
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby acewiza » 2017-12-15 16:59

My Debian "nits" are without exception self-induced - things that crop up because of something I did, some change I made, usually referring to a 3rd party app a year or more into the release cycle where the system is getting long in the tooth from much prior screwing with it.

They usually end up as good learning experiences. :wink:
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby makh » 2017-12-16 06:38

acewiza wrote:...

Hi! Fantastic... Mostly same here too...
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Re: Debian STABLE - a few nit-bits ... :(

Postby dotlj » 2017-12-29 23:02

We live in an imperfect world. We all have to make many choices in our life.
I love Linux because it allows users to make more choices than any other OS, it is more reliable, is it more secure, it allows anyone to contribute, it has more features, and so on.
I think that most of the people who have commented in this post would agree that they prefer Debian to other distros.
I've been using Debian like many others since Sarge. It might not be perfect but when I try other distros, I find that Debian suits me best.
I do test other distros from time to time and advise friends when they ask questions and recommend Debian.
Great also to have a forum where everyone can give their point of view and read the opinions of others.
Maybe we don't agree about some of the minor points but we do agree about Debian being best suited to our needs.
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