Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

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Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 12:04

I can see, for over years now, good people from this forum and others being such unhelpful because "It's not Debian" and using the Don't break Debian to support their complete laziness into helping people.

I've been a Debian user since it's first versions, when you had to format and install it over text interface, and this one thing always annoyed me. As I gain knowledge of Debian and began understanding it's flavors, life cycle, directives and so on, I noticed that people are misunderstanding the Derivate word meaning, making it into one and only signification, and turning what should be a much bigger and better community than the other OSes are.

The enemy (you know who pays propaganda for killing linux reputation...) wants us divided, so it's easier to beat us.

First let's make it clear that the "Pure Debian" concept is also misunderstood, since for being Pure, one shall not install any non-free package, so forget about drivers, wifi and whatsoever uses proprietary drivers and libraries (notice that what is left is indeed the only one pure debian).

"...A common, but not unique pattern for derivatives is that of reusing/rebuilding most of the official Debian packages and adding some custom packages of their own...."
https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives

So, let's talk abou a Taboo: A direct derivation from Debian, witch uses Debian main packages and repository, is Debian on it's root, and probaly is just programs and DE's that differ that distro from Debian, so came on, If you take a "pure debian" iso, put on a driver, you're not pure debian anymore, put on anything out of Debian free repository (yes, including the non-free Debian repository) than is not "pure debian" anymore, than, that direct derivation, is not "Pure Debian" also, and it's ok!

The problem start when people asks help for a direct derivate Debian distro and people start shouting that it's not Debian.

If one person buy one Ferrari car, and than put a Wolksvagen multimedia central on it (whatever), put on Pioneer Bass Speakers, put LCD screens into the dash, etc.. than that Ferrari is not a Ferrari anymore?? (direct derivates, like SparkyLinux) Also you know that if your multimedia central burns, is not Ferrari fault right?

It's totally different like SsangYoung cars, made by china with a Mercedes engine, is that a Mercedes? NOO! Only uses the engine of it (Based derivation, like ubuntu), but have it's own maker. Than you know that if something else than the engine fails, it's not Mercedes fault, right?

So let's contextualize the Don't break Debian:
https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
"...The reason things can break is because the software packaged for one Debian release is built to be compatible with the rest of the software for that release. For example, installing packages from buster on a stretch system could also install newer versions of core libraries including libc6. This results in a system that is not testing or stable but a broken mix of the two...."

Explaining: If your direct derivation distro OR Debian install (free or non-free) is based on stable, don't try to install on it a testing/unstable repository software, it'll break. Just keep the same flavor, like SparkyLinux, witch have all three flavors.

The most important part, witch those "pure debian" paladins don't read, is:
"...Don't blindly follow bad advice...
...It's better to take the time to figure out the correct way to do something first than spending even more time fixing a broken system later. You would not let some random stranger feed your baby; do not execute commands without first understanding what they do...."

So they don't read, do not understand completely how your derivation IS DEBIAN on it's root and stay closed mind into saying you should be "Pure Debian" before asking help on the Debian forum...

Guys, please, evolve, lets make the other OSes payed support sound like shit because we can!
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby bw123 » 2017-12-16 12:58

I like analogies, so let's go with the Ferrari and the VW soundsystem.

Let's say you had this really nice car, and you wanted another sound system in it. If you cut out the dash to make it fit, then could you still go back to the factory system later? Let's say instead of using the original wiring harness, you ran a hot wire to the battery, would that be a thing you would want on your car? is it remotely possible that this kind of rigging of your car would affect the other electrical components? How would you troubleshoot such a setup if there were problems?

p.s. if you added another verse to this song, would it still be the same song?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_J ... _Joel_song)
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby GarryRicketson » 2017-12-16 13:04

The thing of it is, this forum was originally intended for Debian Users,
as the name of it implies. Debian User Forums , And the admins /moderators try to keep it that way.

There are many general Linux forums, where various distros are discussed, including Debian based distros, then there are forum that the various distros have, IE: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, even Sparky Linux , has it's own forum.
There are some members knowledgeable, about the other distros as well ,
and they are willing to try to help. But when trolls start trying to claim
this distro, or that distro is Debian, and they are not Debian , the problem begins.
When people have a problem with a non Debian distro, to start with they should post the problem in the "off topic" forum, that is one reason it was created, and not try to pretend that what they are using is Debian,
by Capitain_Jack »>>Guys, please, evolve, lets make the other OSes payed support sound like shit because we can!

I don't know about if any of the other distros charge for their support, or "other Os's" either, the point is this forum is intended for Debian users, and
those using Other OS's, and other Linux distros, should look for support on
the appropriated forums, where they will find more people experienced with
that particular OS or Linux distribution,...
What it sounds like, is you would like to see this forum change and become a general Linux, or general Debian based distros type forum, there are many other forum members that do not want that.

by Capitain_Jack »>>The enemy (you know who pays propaganda for killing linux reputation...) wants us divided, so it's easier to beat us.

You are getting pretty wild, paranoid, and WHO , is this big enemy,who do they pay ? ... Linux builds, or kills it's own reputation by either being a good dependable OS,kernel, or following the MS windows trend, and trying to be more and more like MS windows, so they can attract more windows users, that is what is killing the Linux reputation, and fast,.... the more it becomes attractive to MS windows lovers, the less attractive it becomes it becomes to me, ( I don't know about others ),
Like wise, these "other distros", many cause more harm, OH yes , they are pretty, and Wow, they even include non-free firmware, and for hardware that
is built and designed to be MS specific,...that is why they require the non-free
drivers and firm ware,.... it is almost impossible to avoid that any more. But
any way, the most popular distros, all have one thing in common, they are very user unfriendly, lot's of pretty Icons, and software, almost just like MS windows,
in fact the more like windows they are, the more popular they are,....Linux / Windows, is becoming more and more like the same OS,... this is really sad.
============= side note ==========
In the other thread, I commented ,
Aye,Aye , Capitain , Si Señor, "correcto , correcto"

My grand daughter read it out loud,(she is just starting to learn to read)... and now Bryan is driving me nut's,
pacing back and forth, screaming "Aye,Aye , Capitain , Si Señor, "correcto , correcto",.... any way, it helps keep me from getting depressed. Thanks
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 13:42

bw123 wrote:p.s. if you added another verse to this song, would it still be the same song?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_J ... _Joel_song)


It would be a version of that song, and doing the analogy, it would be a rebuilt derivative, but if you remix that sound into another sound style, it would be the same music letter, only another rhythm, so that would be a direct derivative. It is the SAME SAME song? Nops, but still is the same root music.
Last edited by Capitain_Jack on 2017-12-16 13:56, edited 1 time in total.
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"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 13:53

GarryRicketson wrote:The thing of it is, this forum was originally intended for Debian Users,
as the name of it implies. Debian User Forums , And the admins /moderators try to keep it that way.

So, if you take your Ferrari with a properly installed another maker sound system (using original wires), they're not going to service you engine because is not a Ferrari anymore?

GarryRicketson wrote:There are many general Linux forums, where various distros are discussed, including Debian based distros, then there are forum that the various distros have, IE: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, even Sparky Linux , has it's own forum.
There are some members knowledgeable, about the other distros as well ,
and they are willing to try to help. But when trolls start trying to claim
this distro, or that distro is Debian, and they are not Debian , the problem begins.
When people have a problem with a non Debian distro, to start with they should post the problem in the "off topic" forum, that is one reason it was created, and not try to pretend that what they are using is Debian,

Off topic is intended for "If it doesn't relate to Debian, but you still want to share it, please do it here ", so if it is about a direct derivation or rebuilt derivation, where they come from? not from Debian so is not Debian related?

by Capitain_Jack »>>Guys, please, evolve, lets make the other OSes payed support sound like shit because we can!

GarryRicketson wrote: I don't know about if any of the other distros charge for their support, or "other Os's" either, the point is this forum is intended for Debian users, and
those using Other OS's, and other Linux distros, should look for support on
the appropriated forums, where they will find more people experienced with
that particular OS or Linux distribution,...
What it sounds like, is you would like to see this forum change and become a general Linux, or general Debian based distros type forum, there are many other forum members that do not want that.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/gp/offerprophone
https://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/ubuntu-l ... prise.html

and so on...if you are not into knowing deeply a SO and want a good support, you must pay.

by Capitain_Jack »>>The enemy (you know who pays propaganda for killing linux reputation...) wants us divided, so it's easier to beat us.

GarryRicketson wrote: You are getting pretty wild, paranoid, and WHO , is this big enemy,who do they pay ? ... Linux builds, or kills it's own reputation by either being a good dependable OS,kernel, or following the MS windows trend, and trying to be more and more like MS windows, so they can attract more windows users, that is what is killing the Linux reputation, and fast,.... the more it becomes attractive to MS windows lovers, the less attractive it becomes it becomes to me, ( I don't know about others ),
Like wise, these "other distros", many cause more harm, OH yes , they are pretty, and Wow, they even include non-free firmware, and for hardware that
is built and designed to be MS specific,...that is why they require the non-free
drivers and firm ware,.... it is almost impossible to avoid that any more. But
any way, the most popular distros, all have one thing in common, they are very user unfriendly, lot's of pretty Icons, and software, almost just like MS windows,
in fact the more like windows they are, the more popular they are,....Linux / Windows, is becoming more and more like the same OS,... this is really sad.


http://cosmicpenguin.com/linux/MICROSOF ... LINUX.html

GarryRicketson wrote: ============= side note ==========
In the other thread, I commented ,
Aye,Aye , Capitain , Si Señor, "correcto , correcto"

My grand daughter read it out loud,(she is just starting to learn to read)... and now Bryan is driving me nut's,
pacing back and forth, screaming "Aye,Aye , Capitain , Si Señor, "correcto , correcto",.... any way, it helps keep me from getting depressed. Thanks


That's very nice! I like those words, and don't mistake me as a troll, I encourage good human interaction as well, it made me laugh also =D
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-12-16 14:09

Oh, boy...tha's a long post.

Capitain_Jack wrote:using the Don't break Debian to support their complete laziness into helping people.

It's because of how Debian Stable works. You are free to add anything from the Stable repo, even non-free stuff. Add anything outside of repos that's not tested, and you will break the system.

Capitain_Jack wrote:The enemy (you know who pays propaganda for killing linux reputation...) wants us divided, so it's easier to beat us.

Nah, we do that all on our own just fine.
Capitain_Jack wrote:First let's make it clear that the "Pure Debian" concept is also misunderstood, since for being Pure, one shall not install any non-free package, so forget about drivers, wifi and whatsoever uses proprietary drivers and libraries (notice that what is left is indeed the only one pure debian).

Wrong, Debian does not limit you to using just main repo. You are given freedom to not use only it.

Using Debian would not be much different than using any of it's derivatives. Those are just pre-configured versions of Debian under different name. And with their own repositories. What do you get when you combine multiple repos containing the same packages? Yeah, you get version conflicts when one repo updates sooner than the other.
Last edited by Wheelerof4te on 2017-12-16 14:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Dai_trying » 2017-12-16 14:10

Personally I do think it is better to use the forum of the distribution you are using (most distro's have their own) as often there are tweaks that can be very hard to decipher when trying to troubleshoot a fault, I am not a staunch believer in telling "it's not Debian" but I do believe the best course of action when something doesn't work as it should is go to that particular distributions own developers to find/fix the issue. If I have a problem with a Debian based distro (and the developers/community cannot resolve it) I will first try to reproduce it on a "pure" Debian installation to be sure it is the base that is at fault and not something that has been added/changed/removed that causes the issue, then I could come here for assistance with the information from a pure Debian install and then find a reason/fix/bug report for whatever the problem is found to be.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby dcihon » 2017-12-16 14:28

Just to prepare my comment. I am not trolling here as defined by wikipedia:
"Someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”


I would just like to know of anyone here that is using "pure" debian without "any" non-free packages?
Is that the meaning understood here as "pure debian"?
Can "pure debian" have non-free packages?

I would think that a "pure debian" install would limit your use of the software. For example can you play all the videos on you tube , in a web browser on a "pure debian" install?

Thanks
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-12-16 14:31

^Yes you can have "pure Debian" if free drivers support your hardware. I've used only main on my old PC, for a while.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-12-16 14:39

dcihon wrote:I would just like to know of anyone here that is using "pure" debian without "any" non-free packages?

Yup:
Code: Select all
empty@testbed:~ $ vrms                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

No non-free or contrib packages installed on testbed!  rms would be proud.
empty@testbed:~ $

I do "cheat" and copy the firmware that my (Intel) wireless card needs over from my Arch box but firmware != software :D
can you play all the videos on you tube , in a web browser on a "pure debian" install?

Yup.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 14:41

Dai_trying wrote:Personally I do think it is better to use the forum of the distribution you are using (most distro's have their own) as often there are tweaks that can be very hard to decipher when trying to troubleshoot a fault, I am not a staunch believer in telling "it's not Debian" but I do believe the best course of action when something doesn't work as it should is go to that particular distributions own developers to find/fix the issue. If I have a problem with a Debian based distro (and the developers/community cannot resolve it) I will first try to reproduce it on a "pure" Debian installation to be sure it is the base that is at fault and not something that has been added/changed/removed that causes the issue, then I could come here for assistance with the information from a pure Debian install and then find a reason/fix/bug report for whatever the problem is found to be.


That's a good aproach, but, if one asks for help, let's say, on setting up fstab ntfs-3g mount points using barely the command line, what is the difference when a distro is directly derivation of Debian (that said, it's core packages are the Debian one's)? It's not possible for us as, as Debian users, help because he supposed to know how to ask for help? What I meant with this post was exactly that.

Those direct derivation distro's, on the core part, are Debian, so the core problems can always be addressed as Debian (for us, who supposed to know more about the core of it) and there is no reason why exclude that person simply sayind "it's not Debian". The distro I'm using as example have the "do not mess with debian content" directive, so the things on it's repos are know working software DESIGNED to run within Debian. As I'm medium experienced user, I know when it's on sparky packages and when it's on it's Debian core, but not everyone should have help denied because of that.

I say we shall move towards helping diagnose to show when the problem is on core or distro (into direct derivations only, of course, if the distro rebuild debian from source, it's not debian direct derivation anymore), and than address the solving or indicate the appropriate forum and forum topic to post, it would be more polite and also prompt people to join our friendly community....
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Albert Einstein
"All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?"
Buddha
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-12-16 14:42

Capitain_Jack wrote:I say we shall move towards helping diagnose to show when the problem is on core or distro (into direct derivations only, of course, if the distro rebuild debian from source, it's not debian direct derivation anymore), and than address the solving or indicate the appropriate forum and forum topic to post, it would be more polite and also prompt people to join our friendly community....

You do that if you want, I don't want to troubleshoot FrankenDebian systems, that is not a "skill" I wish to cultivate :P
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 14:43

dcihon wrote:I would just like to know of anyone here that is using "pure" debian without "any" non-free packages?
Is that the meaning understood here as "pure debian"?
Can "pure debian" have non-free packages?

I would think that a "pure debian" install would limit your use of the software. For example can you play all the videos on you tube , in a web browser on a "pure debian" install?

Thanks

"...Debian (/ˈdɛbiən/)[4][5] is a Unix-like computer operating system that is composed entirely of free software, most of which is under the GNU General Public License and packaged by a group of individuals participating in the Debian Project..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian

This is the definition of pure Debian. Anything out of it is not pure debian, even one program, driver firmware out of it.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 14:45

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:You do that if you want, I don't want to troubleshoot FrankenDebian systems, that is not a "skill" I wish to cultivate :P


I am not asking you to troubleshoot FrakenDebian systems, only to know when is debian when is not. You're closing your mind into such a way that if you change the oil of your car out of your maker shop, it's not that maker car anymore.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Head_on_a_Stick » 2017-12-16 14:45

^ Whatever... :roll:
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