Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 14:50

Still into the Debian roots:
"...As one of the earliest operating systems based on the Linux kernel, it was decided that Debian was to be developed openly and freely distributed in the spirit of the GNU Project..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian

This supposed to be our spirit:
"...We must talk about freedom

Estimates today are that there are ten million users of GNU/Linux systems such as Debian GNU/Linux and Red Hat “Linux”. Free software has developed such practical advantages that users are flocking to it for purely practical reasons.

The good consequences of this are evident: more interest in developing free software, more customers for free software businesses, and more ability to encourage companies to develop commercial free software instead of proprietary software products.

But interest in the software is growing faster than awareness of the philosophy it is based on, and this leads to trouble. Our ability to meet the challenges and threats described above depends on the will to stand firm for freedom. To make sure our community has this will, we need to spread the idea to the new users as they come into the community.

But we are failing to do so: the efforts to attract new users into our community are far outstripping the efforts to teach them the civics of our community. We need to do both, and we need to keep the two efforts in balance...."

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 14:52

Wheelerof4te wrote:^Yes you can have "pure Debian" if free drivers support your hardware. I've used only main on my old PC, for a while.


That if your hardware is entirely based on free packages, so if you buy a pc today that doesn't have the free driver/firmware, forget about "pure debian".
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 15:05

Wheelerof4te wrote:Oh, boy...tha's a long post.

It's a big matter, big problem and big everything, after all, we are talking about Debian, and Debian is no small.

Wheelerof4te wrote:It's because of how Debian Stable works. You are free to add anything from the Stable repo, even non-free stuff. Add anything outside of repos that's not tested, and you will break the system.


Who ensures that ALL repos of ALL outside repos are not tested by own mantainer? You? The same person who ensures the so called "brakness" of such configuration? Than why my installation remains the same since my hd failed?

daniel@zionsparkyx64:~$ cat /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ testing non-free main


##
##
## Other repos can be found in /etc/apt/sources.list.d directory ##

daniel@zionsparkyx64:/etc/apt/sources.list.d$ ls
google-chrome.list liquorix.list sid.list sparky-dde.list sparky-testing.list sparky-unstable.list teamviewer.list teamviewer.list.dpkg-old
daniel@zionsparkyx64:/etc/apt/sources.list.d$ cat sparky-testing.list
### sparky testing repository
### used as default by all sparky editions
deb https://sparkylinux.org/repo/ testing main
deb-src https://sparkylinux.org/repo/ testing main


Wheelerof4te wrote:Nah, we do that all on our own just fine.

What??
Wheelerof4te wrote:Wrong, Debian does not limit you to using just main repo. You are given freedom to not use only it.

Who said Debian limits anything? I'm saying exactly opposite of that! I am trying to make people see that direct derivations, wich uses Debian as main repo and offers software (tested or not by Debian team), can be helped into the Debian core of that distro into this forum, after all, apart from software, it is Debian.

Wheelerof4te wrote:Using Debian would not be much different than using any of it's derivatives. Those are just pre-configured versions of Debian under different name. And with their own repositories.

Have you tested all of every single Debian direct derivation into every software to ensure that? Neither I, but I know to tell when a derivation can and cannot use a Debian command by asking the main repos.

Wheelerof4te wrote:What do you get when you combine multiple repos containing the same packages? Yeah, you get version conflicts when one repo updates sooner than the other.


Again, you ensure that all out repos have the same packages as Debian? Aren't you being closed mind?
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby kedaha » 2017-12-16 15:07

dcihon wrote:I would just like to know of anyone here that is using "pure" debian without "any" non-free packages?

Yes, I run Debian on both home desktop system and remote, dedicated server without any non-free or contrib packages.
dcihon wrote:Is that the meaning understood here as "pure debian"?
Can "pure debian" have non-free packages?

Non-free packages are packaged for Debian but are not Debian. But, as noted here:
Non-free software is made available to those who wish to risk its ills. Before blindly installing non-free software it may be prudent to ask if there is a Free replacement.

dcihon wrote:I would think that a "pure debian" install would limit your use of the software. For example can you play all the videos on you tube , in a web browser on a "pure debian" install?

If you install, for example, FlashPlayer, you must accept the Adobe's EULA, which has absolutely nothing to do with Debian. If you install Skype, you are similarly bound by Microsoft's terms. Of course one can't view videos which require Flash if one rejects the proprietary license. Similary, if you reject Microsoft's Licensee agreement, you must forgo the wonders of Windows. :wink:
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 15:13

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:^ Whatever... :roll:

Now that's a true point of view, sincerely, very honestly based. It's this kind of thing that kept me from registering from the beginning into Debian forums...

We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby 4D696B65 » 2017-12-16 15:16

Capitain_Jack wrote:We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.

That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 15:16

kedaha wrote:If you install, for example, FlashPlayer, you must accept the Adobe's EULA, which has absolutely nothing to do with Debian. If you install Skype, you are similarly bound by Microsoft's terms. Of course one can't view videos which require Flash if one rejects the proprietary license. Similary, if you reject Microsoft's Licensee agreement, you must forgo the wonders of Windows. :wink:


But do you agree, that at least, a non-free Debian install, still is Debian on its core?
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 15:19

4D696B65 wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote:We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.

That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D


Ok, so you must know how to install Debian non-free from net install image, I guess, and that is what I'm talking about, you have knowledge that can be useful into direct derivations, when a problem is related/can be solved using debian core. And I guess (not stalking into your profile, just talking normaly) also that if one asks for help and have anything else onto repos, you deny help, even if is a how to enable no password for sudo....don't you?

What I meant about roots wasn't software, but directives:
"...As one of the earliest operating systems based on the Linux kernel, it was decided that Debian was to be developed openly and freely distributed in the spirit of the GNU Project. This decision drew the attention and support of the Free Software Foundation, which sponsored the project for one year from November 1994 to November 1995.[8] Upon the ending of the sponsorship, the Debian Project formed the non-profit organisation Software in the Public Interest...."
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Wheelerof4te » 2017-12-16 15:21

Whatever you are trying to prove, you will not prove it by showelling your views into everyone's throat. Debian gives you choice, as every piece of free (as in freedom) software gives you choice. Go and make your own derivative, call it "Captain Jack Sparrow's distro" or whatever. You can do that.

But don't come here, on Debian's User forums and write that Debian is the same as it's derivatives. No, it is not. Insisting that it is so will only mark you as a troll.

EDIT: Damn, you sure write fast.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Thorny » 2017-12-16 15:23

Well Captain_Jack

You make a first post here and almost immediately you start to tell us how wrong we are and what we should change.

You are informed by an admin that derivitives are not Debian. At least one other long time member also told you. If you read enough posts here you will see that is standard procedure and that most of the time users are directed to the forums for the derivitive as the appropriate place for their questions. In other forums have you had good luck arguing with an admin? (rhetorical question)

You state that you are not a troll, however, your actions seem very much like trollish behaviour to me.

In this thread you are trying to "rally" us all to your way of thinking but I just don't agree with you. Your point that "Sparky" is Debian is a fallacy to begin with, it's based on Debian testing and testing is not a release. In addition, it has always been the recommendation that users running testing know what they are doing and how to diagnose problems and fix them and report bugs as needed. If you want to try and help users of derivatives then go ahead to the best of your ability but you probably shouldn't expect the rest of us to conform to your vision of how we should act. There are those here who also don't try to help inexperienced users use the testing branch and direct them to stable, I view that as good and reasonable advice.

Lastly, a bit of advice from an old guy, spend time being helpful previous to unleashing a spew of criticism.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 15:52

Thorny wrote:Well Captain_Jack

You make a first post here and almost immediately you start to tell us how wrong we are and what we should change.

If something is not right, I must be a veteran to show it off?

Thorny wrote:You are informed by an admin that derivitives are not Debian. At least one other long time member also told you. If you read enough posts here you will see that is standard procedure and that most of the time users are directed to the forums for the derivitive as the appropriate place for their questions. In other forums have you had good luck arguing with an admin? (rhetorical question)

I am sorry if I sound arguing, to type something clearly is already difficult, and english is not my native language. I guess all times I searched something debian related and end up on this forum, I saw people behaving snob about their skills on "pure" this or that, and usualy the question was easy to root and debian related, not derivation repos packages. The small distros, again, that directly derivation from Debian (I mean uses debian as core and provides software, let's say, for multimedia propouse, and thats where my car sound system analogie comes from), usualy doesn't have a big tech user base as Debian have, so this forum could play a major part, be a central into Debian core part of any system.
Thorny wrote:You state that you are not a troll, however, your actions seem very much like trollish behaviour to me.

Why?

Thorny wrote:In this thread you are trying to "rally" us all to your way of thinking but I just don't agree with you. Your point that "Sparky" is Debian is a fallacy to begin with, it's based on Debian testing and testing is not a release.

I see that you read the wiki, please, refer to the web site and you'll see Sparky have all Debian flavors. Until now, and will go on, I do follow the forum rules and have not accused anyone for nothing, and my talk direct to no other than people that use debian non-free and says it's pure debian or deny help on a problem that can be addressed as debian because of, let's say for example, heaving teamviewer repo on it's secondary repos.

You are being rude by using the word falacy.
fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies
a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.
"the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy"
sinônimos: misconception, misbelief, delusion, mistaken impression, error, misapprehension, misinterpretation, misconstruction, mistake; Mais
untruth, inconsistency, myth
"the fallacy that the sun moves round the earth"
Logic
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.
"the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem"

Thorny wrote:In addition, it has always been the recommendation that users running testing know what they are doing and how to diagnose problems and fix them and report bugs as needed. If you want to try and help users of derivatives then go ahead to the best of your ability but you probably shouldn't expect the rest of us to conform to your vision of how we should act. There are those here who also don't try to help inexperienced users use the testing branch and direct them to stable, I view that as good and reasonable advice.


I see you really do not read what I typed...I've been using Debian since the beginning, and derivations also, but not limited to, have you ever heard of Connectiva Linux? I was here, this was in my country...
What I do expect? At least a good talk about it, since this forum is not only for problems related directly to code, but to it's users, us.
I already said up there that sparky have all flavors, and that is not a big problem for me, I know how solid Debian is, even at it's "unstable" flavor, witch is used as base for many very used rebuilt derivates, as Ubuntu.

I'm not asking for advice, nor needing help, my intentions are simply debate to make the forum better.

Thorny wrote:Lastly, a bit of advice from an old guy, spend time being helpful previous to unleashing a spew of criticism.
[/quote]
I am trying to be helpful, actually, I saw this matter I am talking about happening here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=135603
Only after a clean "pure debian" (because as said, if is not pure free is not pure debian) he offered help about the issue, but the first thing was to ask wich repos he was using, and it happens to be sparky.
The reason, I, personaly, use sparky repo, is because have usefull easy to install non-free software, and I am into Linux dissemination locally, at a very poor location into Brazil, so for every install make it Debian way cannot be, I must use some kind of "facilitator" and sparky is just that.

Believe-me when I do say, I run a private pvpgn server over a stable debian non-free (almost pure =D ) install behind a opnsense firewall, I know things...
Last edited by Capitain_Jack on 2017-12-16 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby 4D696B65 » 2017-12-16 15:53

Capitain_Jack wrote:
4D696B65 wrote:
Capitain_Jack wrote:We MUST change attitude, be more Debian roots oriented.

That's what we have been doing. No sparky in my sources.list. :D

Capitain_Jack wrote: And I guess (not stalking into your profile, just talking normaly) also that if one asks for help and have anything else onto repos, you deny help, even if is a how to enable no password for sudo....don't you?
Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby bw123 » 2017-12-16 16:00

Firmware from non-free is not the same as adding a derivative repository because firmware packages for the most part have no dependencies.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 16:00

4D696B65 wrote:Umm yes? I deny help for things that I think are wrong. Even if Ubuntu said it was good.

You are into the "I'm pure" business...never read the derivation definition and the TWO types of derivation: DIRECT (using debian main packages) and REBUILT (from source, like Ubuntu), I am talking about direct derivations, witch in it's core is Debian (free and/or non-free, whenever it's flavor stable, testing or unstable), and normally, are only software repos.
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Re: Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates.

Postby Capitain_Jack » 2017-12-16 16:02

bw123 wrote:Firmware from non-free is not the same as adding a derivative repository because firmware packages for the most part have no dependencies.

"...Features...
...Debian has access to online repositories that contain over 50,000 software packages making it the largest software compilation. Debian officially contains only free software , but non-free software can be downloaded and installed from the Debian repositories..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Features
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